Skip to main content
SearchLoginLogin or Signup

1919 Texas Rangers Investigation Committee Report | Volume 3

Making the 1919 Texas Rangers Investigation Committee Report widely available for the first time.

Published onJun 25, 2021
1919 Texas Rangers Investigation Committee Report | Volume 3
1 of 3
key-enterThis Pub is a Commentary on

VOLUME 3

INDEX.

Supplemental Answer of Adjutant General -- - - 1085

Testimony of Captain W. T. Vann, recalled, - - - - - - - 1089

" " C. L. Jessup ---—- - -1092

" " F. H. Burmeister - - - -- - - 1123

" Oscar Thompson - - - - - -- - - - - 1141

Recalled. ------—— ——1191

" Lon C. Hill ---- ----1144

Recalled, - - - - -- - 1219

" " Henry Edds - - - - - - - - - - — — — —1162

" " Glaude MeGill - - - - -- -— — —— - - — - 1167

" J. M. Mothershead - - - - - - - - - — — — — 1195

"" Capt. J. H. Rogers - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1233

"J. D. Jackson -- - - — — — — — — — —1250

""C. L. Breniman - - - - - - - - - — - — —1259

" " Pat D. Haley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1274

" Frederico Lopez - - - - ------ -- - - 1298

" " Eduardo Izaguirre - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1308

" " W. B. Hinkly - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1320

" " Royal Collins - - - ---——-—- --- - - 1341

" " Lee Dickens - - ----------- - - —- 1362

" " H. E. Barnes - --- - — — — — - - - - - - - 1364

" " Capt. J. J. Sanders - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1382

Excerpt from Grand Jury Report, Cameron County, - - - - - 1407

Testimony of W. W. Sterling - - -- - - - - - - -- 1408

" " E. H. Parker - - - ----- -- - - - - - - 1416

" " Frank Rabb - - - - - — — - — — — —1424

" " Chas. F. Stevens - - - - - - - —1427

"Joe Taylor 1 ----- - —- - - —1450

Testimony of L. L. Willis - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1453

List of Cattle Inspectors who are Special Rangers,

furnished by Dayton Moses, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1460

List of Special Rangers - - - -- - - — — — - — -- 1461

List of Special Rangers whose commissions were

revoked January 15, 1919, - - - - -— — - - - - - - 1466

Testimony of John I. Kleiber - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1477

" " Capt. E. A. Sterling - - - - —— — — — — — 1501

" " Capt. R. W. Aldrich - - - - - - - - - — - - 1507

Exhibit regarding Registrants, Slackers, etc., - - - - - 1513

Testimony of Capt. William Wright - - - -1516

" " George Saddler - - - - - -- --- - — — - 1531

" " John Sittre - -- - - - — — — — - - — - - 1541

" " Frank B. Clark - - - - - - -—— — - - - - - 1557

Testimony of J. T. Canales, recalled, - - - - - - - - - - 1559

Correspondence between Capt. W. T. Vann and

Sheriff Hollingsworth - - - - - - - - - - - - - - — - 1560

Rules governing Texas Rangers - - - - - - - - - - - - — - 1583

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1919.

- - - - - - - -

AFTERNOON SESSION.

- - - - - - - -

The Joint Committee of the Senate and House to investigate the charges against the State Ranger Force reconvened at 1. 30 o'clock P. M.

- - - - - - - -

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, let’s have order. Now, Judge, at this time could the Adjutant General's Department and his associates indicate what time it will take for the presentation of their side?

MR. KNIGHT: I declare to you, Gentlemen, I wish I knew. (Laughter) I can only tell you that we are going to rush the thing with all possible speed and facilitate it in every way we can. Now, I said Saturday night that we thought it would not take long. Two days and nights have gone, and we have just gotten at it.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: We have no disposition to hurry you.

MR. KNIGHT: I understand.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: But we have some other matters we are trying to arrange. Is there any reason why we could not reasonably expect to conclude the evidence by Friday noon?

MR. KNIGHT: I think not, Your Honor.

MR. MOSES: By Friday noon?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Yes, sir. This is Tuesday.

MR. KNIGHT: That will give us three full days.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: We will run all night if you want to.

MR. MOSES: I think we can unquestionably get through before that time.

MR. KNIGHT: I think so. We will do our very best.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: We have no disposition to hurry you, but we have so many people here that are wanting to get away.

MR. KNIGHT: I understand that. You have our complete sympathy and co-operation.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, I am not going to undertake to control your order of procedure, but in so far as the witnesses are from the more remote sections dispose of them as early as possible.

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir.

(Thereupon Mr. Tidwell of the Committee swore Charles E. Pickle to act as one of the Official Shorthand Reporters of the Investigation.)

MR KNIGHT: The Adjutant General will read his pleading at this time.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Some additional pleadings?

GENERAL HARLEY: It raises no additional issues, but it defines our position and the issues in this case at this time.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: All right.

Thereupon Adjutant General Harley read the pleading above mentioned, which reads as follows:

Austin, Texas,
February 10, 1919.

To the Hon. W. H. Bledsoe, Chairman,
and the Members of the Joint Committee
of the House and Senate to investigate
the Charges against the State Ranger Force.

Sirs:

The Adjutant General further representing to the Committee presents that heretofore towit on the 26th day of January, 1919, he issued a communication to the Legislature requesting the appointment of a Committee to investigate all alleged charges against the Ranger Force, and to determine the causes of complaint and the motives of those making said complaints. The purpose of the Adjutant General in making this request to the Investigation Committee appointed by the Legislature was that a fair and impartial tribunal might be constituted which would summon witnesses and go thoroughly into matters with witnesses before them testifying under the sanction of an oath; that said Committee could elicit testimony before said Committee which the Adjutant General's Department could never procure by non-judicial investigation. He further represents that he realized that such a Committee as is now constituted and here sitting could understand the vicissitudes and dangers that beset the Texas Rangers, and the difficulties under which the Adjutant General's Department labored in endeavoring to keep a high standard personnel on starvation wages. "Every laborer is worthy of his hire" and no man is going to render higher service than the standard you fix for him by his remuneration, save in a few exceptional cases, and in this the Adjutant General asks the judgment of this Committee relative to the proper remuneration.

The Adjutant General further states that his appearance before this Committee is not for the purpose of hiding or defending any acts of misconduct by Rangers, but that he may be of assistance to this Committee by helping to develop both sides of every controversy. That he has never condoned or approved of misconduct, nor has his agent and inspector, W. M. Hanson, ever done so, but on the contrary has always and continuously endeavored to eliminate the bad element from the force which is evidenced by the fact that he has discharged approximately 108 men during his tenure of office which is 100% of the actual number of men now on the force; that acting under the Governor's direction, he has tried to maintain a high standard of conduct for Rangers, and has always investigated causes of complaint whenever made by well meaning and reliable citizens; that he represents that many matters of misconduct developed before this Committee constituted acts which were committed prior to his induction into the office of the Adjutant General of the State and matters over which he had no control, and which happened a long time prior to his term, and of which he had no means of knowing, and of these matters he asks the judgment of the Committee that they so state in their report.

The Adjutant General further represents that this investigation having taken a wide scope which covers a number of years of ranger activities, especially on the border where alleged acts have been complained of before this Committee which anti-dates the encumbency of the present administration, requests the Committee to differentiate between acts committed prior to and subsequent to the present regime, in order that the public may know that all the misconduct complained of is not attributable to the present personnel of the force and of this the Adjutant General asks judgment of this Committee.

The Adjutant General further represents that the low salary, and the heavy taxing· of our manpower by the National Government made it practically impossible to keep any character of men on the force, much less high-class men at all times as evidenced by the fact that a number equal to the present force have been discharged, and about 95% have resigned during my tenure of office.

Further representing to the Committee the Adjutant General says that the many hundreds of citizens of this State who have so splendidly rallied to the support of the Ranger and who know and live in the portions of Texas where the Texas Ranger is the only safeguard for the lives of their loved ones and their property have had no mercenary or biased motive in appearing here, but only to assist this Committee and see that the Ranger service that their forefathers organized was not destroyed by the enemies of good government.

Further representing to this Committee, the Adjutant General says a living evidence of the necessity for continuing the force is the fact that the Governor of the State, the loyal members of the force, and all good citizens, and specially those who live in the border section, are anxious that the Ranger Force be purged of undesirables (if there are any) and that the force be composed only of good, law-abiding, clean men, who at all times will observe the law and conduct themselves as officers should.

The Adjutant General, acting for the Governor, has endeavored to rid the service of the lawless element, and will continue to do so with the assistance of the Legislature, if given the proper agency with which to carry out such reforms as are necessary which he now asks of this Corrnnittee and prays judgment thereof.

The Adjutant General further represents that if the Legislature acting upon the sound judgment of this Committee will place a sufficient salary for Rangers at the disposal of the Adjutant General and make such other recommendations as can be easily carried out by the Legislature in placing within the complete control of the Adjutant General the state Rangers subject only to the Governor’s call to duty, the Adjutant General can and will eliminate from the Force and make of it an organization that will be the pride and protection of the State and its best citizens.

Further presenting this matter to the Committee, the Adjutant General represents that it is his belief that the Ranger Force as now constituted is composed of men, some of whom are of excellent character, and whose conduct as Rangers has been second to that of no other peace officer of the State, and that the general aspersions cast during this investigation upon the character of such men, should not go unchallenged, to their humiliation because perchance some acts were committed by a few others, most of which occurred in 1915 and 1916 long prior to the term of service of these men and the Adjutant General and unknown to them, although uncomplained of and known to their calumniators, and of this he asks judgment of this Committee.

The Adjutant General further represents as heretofore stated that when asking for the appointment of an Investigation Committee, he welcomed a healthful and through investigation as given by the committee in justice to the people and the Rangers, that they may know the real facts, and of the wrongs committed, and help correct them. Notwithstanding the effort on the part of the Adjutant General to assist in dispelling the mists of misunderstanding, it is sincerely to be regretted that sinister forces, grown venomous, by political rancor, against the Chief Executive, should seek by an abuse of legislative privileges to drag from its high purpose the efforts of this Committee and require you Gentlemen to grope through the mists of personal aspersions and to weigh without evidence the cowardly thrusts that real American manhood would not tolerate in the open; aspersions cast under the protection of sacred privileges, sadly abused, and in this the Adjutant General respectfully submits to the wisdom of this committee the justice and fairness of the actuating motives that impelled them, and asks for such action as this Committee deems advisable.

In conclusion the Adjutant General respectfully submits all matters before this Committee with full confidence in the combined wisdom of their action and asks that they recommend such action and changes in the Ranger system, its personnel, and its future operations. believing that this Committee will serve the purpose for which the Adjutant General asked for it, if it will give the public and the Legislature the benefit of what has been developed herein, and which he knows will be done to the benefit of the Ranger Service in the future, and the honor of our State.

Respectfully,

JAS. A. HARLEY,
The Adjutant General, State of Texas.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, before you begin, Captain Vann was to refresh his memory with reference to the personnel of the force who were with Captain Ransom at that train wreck, and he is fixing to leave town. With your permission, I would like to ask him one question.

MR. KNIGHT: All right.

CAPTAIN W. T. VANN,

recalled to the witness-stand, testified as follows:

EXAMINATION BY CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE:

Q Captain Vann, when you were on the stand the other day you were asked by some member of the Committee if Captain Anders, now on the Force, was a member of Captain Ransom’s party at the time of the train wreck. Have you refreshed your memory in any way about it?

A Yes, sir; he was on the Force, but I would not absolutely swear he was there; I am almost sure he was. I wired down there and the party wired back that he was there, but I can not remember absolutely that he was there; I would not swear that he was there; I can't remember seeing him there. There were other Rangers there. I think all of Captain Ransom’s bunch were there the next morning, but I can't pick him out and say absolutely he was there.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: All right. Is there anything else desired from him before he leaves?

EXAMINATION BY MR. TIDWELL.

Q You spoke of Captain Ransom taking those men some distance down the river. Can you recall who the men were that were acting under the orders of Captain Ransom at that time?

A No, sir. I remember that Luke Engelking was a Ranger at that time.

Q Who else? I want to get those who participated in that execution.

A Well, they were Captain Ransom's men. I know he was there because he made them talk to me.

Q Now, Engelking. Do you remember any other?

MR. KNIGHT: Is Ransom is dead?

A Yes, sir. I know that Engelking and the Captain both belonged to his Ranger company. I remember Captain Ransom being there absolutely, but I can't say about the others.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: You think Captain Anders was there?

A Yes, sir.

MR. MOSES: Can you recall the name of any other Ranger who was there at that time?

A No, I don't, Judge. I don't remember just who all was in his company; it has been two or three years ago, and I don't remember just who composed his company of Rangers at that time.

MR. CANALES: Was Ewing Baker among them?

A I don't know whether he was at that time or not, but Baker has been on the Force with Ransom a good deal. Ransom didn't keep men very long; sometimes they stayed thirty days or sixty days. There was a new bunch all the time.

MR. TIDWELL: Now, there is one other question. You say he could not keep men. Was that due to his inefficiency or the inefficiency of the men?

A It was due to his inefficiency. He was very overbearing and couldn't get along with them.

MR. TIDWELL: Do you remember the date of his death?

A Yes, sir; it was last year some time; it was during our District Court; it came out and I read it in the paper; it was at Sweetwater.

MR. TIDWELL: Was he still a Ranger at that time?

A I understood so. He was a Captain.

MR. TIDWELL: That's all.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That's all. Gentlemen, pardon me for the interruption.

MR. CANALES: Mr. Chairman, I want to get clear on the proposition. A pleading has been read by the Adjutant General. I want to get it clear as to the real issues raised. I do not understand that he pleads a general denial. I understand it is in the nature of a confession and avoidance. I want to get the nature of the plea so I can find out what issues are raised here. I heard it read very patiently, and it struck me as what the law perhaps may term in the nature of a confession and avoidance, rather than a general denial of the charges made. I want to get that clear in the record.

MR. MOSES: We are not responsible for the lack of understanding of the counsel who filed these charges. That pleading speaks for itself; it is in plain United States, and if counsel is not able to understand what it means, that is no fault of the Adjutant General; and since he has made that statement in the presence--I will not say for the benefit, but in the presence of the multitude, we desire to say it is not any confession and avoidance at all, but speaks for itself.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, the fact about the business is, it is not necessary to name it. The Adjutant General has filed a written statement or pleading, or whatever you are pleased to call it. The issues before the Committee will not depend upon any pleadings filed, but by the scope of the resolution under which we are operating.

MR. CANALES: Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: We are not confined to any pleadings raised by counsel. Proceed, Gentlemen.

C.E. JESSUP,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

EXAMINATION BY MR. KNIGHT.

2 Mr. Jessup, where do you live?

A Brownsville.

Q How long have you lived on the Border?

A A little more than ten years.

Q What is your business at the present time?

A I am Manager for a portion of the Brown Estate at Brownsville.

Q What is the name of that plantation under your jurisdiction down there?

A The Brown estate had four corporations they asked me to look after; one is the Piper Plantation Company, the Buena Vista Gattle Company, the Piper Mercantile Company, and Brownsville Creamery & Dairy Company.

Q Now, have you ever taken part in political matters in the Valley?

A No, sir---no, sir.

Q Where did you locate when you first went to the Valley?

A At Brownsville.

2 At Brownsville. What were conditions there then as to peace and order and law-abiding condition of affairs?

A Brownsville at the time I moved there was one of the most orderly, quiet, peaceful cities of its size that I have ever known; even at this time, I may say, so far as the administration of city affairs is concerned, I don't think there is a town in the United States of its size that is more orderly than Brownsville is today.

0 Are you connected at this time in any way with the city government of Brownsville?

A Well, I am a member of the Board of City Development there, which is an appointive position, associated with the City Commissioners of the City.

Q Yes, sir. What line of work have you been engaged in since you went to the Valley?

A The first three years I was in the Valley I was manager for a canal system there; then for three or four years I was in the mercantile business, in charge of a hardware, implement and farm machinery business located at San Benito; the past two years I have been residing again in Brownsville, associated with the Browns.

Q Yes, sir. What has been your relation, if any, in regard to the operation of the Rangers on the border?

A In March of last year stealing just below Brownsville and East of Brownsville along the river became so wholesale that I took the matter up first with Sheriff Vann and asked him what we should do, and he said: "Mr. Jessup, my department is powerless, absolutely helpless to help you ranchmen and farmers out; I haven't the force to do it with," and I think he was correct. Talking matters over he advised that we seek help in the person of the Rangers.

2 Yes.

A Our Chamber of Commerce, our City Development, in Brownsville called a meeting of the members to discuss this situation and I was selected a committeeman to come to Austin to ask for help, interview Governor Hobby and General Harley in reference to the matter, and they immediately gave us some Rangers there.

I might state in this connection that just prior to my trip to Austin we had lost thirty-seven head of fine Jersey cows from the Piper Plantation, the Starks adjoining us had lost six cows, and Mr. Cooper, adjoining on the Hast, a small farmer, had lost two work mules, a driving horse and two cows. This all occurred within four weeks' time.

2 That was prior to the time you came to Austin?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, one moment. How far is the Piper Plantation and the other places from the river?

A The Piper place abuts on the river; Mr. Stark's abuts on the river; the Cooper farm is about one mile from the river.

2 Well, go ahead and state what you had to do with the operation of the Rangers.

A Well, just before leaving Brownsville to come to Austin I 'phoned Captain Stevens, who was at Mercedes. We had had no Rangers in our immediate vicinity for a long time. While I was in Austin, Captain Stevens sent two or three of his men down and they made some investigations and arrested some suspects before I got back home. Captain Hanson came right on back to the Valley, arriving there--he stopped off at San Antonio and followed me on the next train then coming on down to Brownsville, and I think Captain Stevens met him there in a day or two. We talked matters over and some of Captain Stevens' men, three men, were immediately stationed on the Piper Plantation. Now, from that time--

Q What was the result, now, of the work of the Rangers there?

A From that time until about four weeks ago, when Captain Taylor's men were removed from there, so far as I know--and I investigated carefully--there was not a solitary instance of any theft in all that community the entire time. Captain Taylor's men were taken off the force about a month ago and the Rangers came out of our locality.

2 Been any stealing?

A Since then we have had two disk harrows right from the plantation carried away.

d Mr. Jessup, give the Committee the benefit of your opinion as to the absolute necessity of Rangers on the border to protect life.

MR. CANALES: I understood the ruling of the Chairman was that this Committee had already heard sufficient testimony, Mr. Chairman, and I made no issue on that point at the very time.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I understand, but still that is not the exact question.

MR. CANALES: All right.

A Please repeat the question.

2 Give the Committee the benefit of your opinion as to the absolute necessity or not for the presence of Rangers in the Valley and along the border to protect and conserve property and the lives of citizens?

A If we are denied the protection that we have had of this character we will be compelled to change our methods of farming and stock-raising---simply can't operate under conditions as they were.

2 What have been your facilities, Mr. Jessup, for getting in touch and knowing and ascertaining the mind of the people in that vicinity in regard to matters of public interest and particularly the work of Rangers in that section of the country?

A Well, my acquaintance in the county is pretty thorough. As I stated, I was for three years in the mercantile business and we operated the only store of any real pretensions in the farm implement and machinery line in the county and our customers extended from one end of the county to the other. While I was living in San Benito I was a member of the Chamber of Commerce there, as I have been in Brownsville. I attend a great many of the farmers' meetings, and also I am frequently present at the meetings of the newcomers who come into the country.

I was on the local Exemption Board there during the most of the War, and two or three different times I have been chosen by the farmers and citizens of the country to make special trips for them to adjoining States and to Washington, and- I think I am thoroughly familiar with the minds of the farming people as well as the citizens of the cities.

2 Now, from your experience and contact with them, does the sentiment existing there coincide with those you have expressed in regard to the Rangers?

A It is my belief that perhaps more than ninety per cent-

SENATOR WILLIFORD: You understand he can state what he knows about it.

MR. KNIGHT: I mean from actual contact with the people.

A I don't want to transgress the rule, but my opportunities have afforded me a chance to talk with scores--more than scores of the people of our county, and I know it to be----

Q Yes.

A --the opinion of the people generally just as I stated, that we could not be deprived of the help we have had without suffering material loss.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: Judge, I think we are losing a good deal of time on something the Committee has no question about.

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir. I am going to hurry on.

Q Mr. Jessup, do you make it a habit to attend public meetings in Brownsville and take an interest in matters of neighborhood concern and public interest?

A Yes, sir.

Q Have you ever heard---state whether or not you have known of Mr. Canales' having participated in any of those public meetings in which he either endorsed or condemned the Ranger force?

A Well, at the time we were discussing the matter of Captain Stevens' removal from the county and the coming of another force to take their place, our city there had a meeting, at which Mr. Canales was present and made an address in which he endorsed the action and presence of the Rangers. Mr. Canales accompanied myself, Gaptain Hanson and Captain Taylor down to the Piper Plantation one Saturday evening when I was paying off and delivered an address to the people there which was a very effective one, trying to reason with the people that it was not necessary for them to cross the border on account of the operation of the Selective Draft law. Then on the following day, which was Sunday, Mr. Canales went with Mr. James A. Brown and myself down to another Brown estate known as the San Rafael and one of the other Brown ranches and talked with the people in a very effective way and manner in regard to what they might expect as regards the operation of the draft law and the presence of the Rangers there---did good, effective work.

2 Now, when was that, Mr. Jessup?

A That was just prior to the second registration. That was--

A That was early in September, was it not?

2 of 1917?

A It was the latter part of August--

L

2 1918?

A 1918, or the first of September.

2 All right. Now, was there anything in Mr. Canales' addresses or in his conversation with you and Captain Hanson to indicate he thought that the exodus was due to the presence of Rangers, or to the draft law?

A Not that I know of, no, sir; we were discussing the draft situation.

Q Nothing said about the Rangers?

A We were discussing Captain Taylor and his men, which was a new Ranger organization coming into the Valley, and Mr. Canales explained to the Mexican population that they were gentlemen coming there to protect law and order and would protect all citizens.

Q And in whom the Mexican citizens could rely and place confidence?

A Yes, sir.

2 Now, then, do you know anything about the conditions with reference to thieving up the river about San Benito?

A Yes, sir.

Q Just tell the Committee what you know about that.

A The vicinity up the river above Brownsville twelve or fifteen miles in the neighborhood of where Mr. Cunningham was killed some months ago is being troubled continuously with loss of stock and one or two murders committed right in that locality. There are no Rangers stationed near that point, as I understand it.

MR. CANALES: I want to ask you, is that true?

A How?

MR. CANALES: That there are no Rangers stationed there?

A As far as I understand it, there are no Rangers there.

Q All right. Is the condition worse up there than in your neighborhood while you had Rangers?

A We had none in our neighborhood while we had Rangers.

Q Now, during all the years you have lived there is the criticism and alleged misconduct and misdemeanors of Rangers worse in the last year or two than it was when you first went there?

A I don't think so, no, sir.

2 Mr. Canales is your Representative, isn't he?

A Yes, sir.

2 He served in previous--served that district in previous sessions of the Legislature?

A Yes, sir.

Q When was your attention first called to the fact that Mr. Canales was taking a very active and prominent part in his attack upon the Rangers?

A I found out the latter part of August that he was taking a prominent part in securing the removal of Captain Stevens and his men from the Valley. Further than that, I had never known of his making any attack--if such it might be called--on the Ranger force until he came to Austin this time.

Q Now, then, Mr. Jessup, have you studied--read and studied what is known as the Canales Bill?

A Yes, sir, I have read it over.

2 What, if any, objections--specific objections have you to that bill that you desire to communicate to the Committee?

A There are two features of the Canales bill as it was introduced---I don't know in just what state it may be now in the hands of the committee, but as introduced there are two features of the bill that I believe would be very detrimental to the effective operation of the Rangers. In the first place, the feature of the bill which provided for making the Ranger force amenable and answerable to the county officials in the county I think would absolutely destroy, possibly, the effectiveness of Rangers in our county, and the feature of bonding the Rangers I also think would destroy the effectiveness of the force.

Q Your idea is that if either of those features should become a law you might as well disband the Rangers?

A Yes, sir. The feature of increasing the pay, I agree with Mr. Canales; I think it should be increased.

2 Yes, sir.

A And, further, I want to agree with Mr. Canales, that I don't hesitate to say that there have been mistakes made by Rangers, and I would like to see the force improved, but we don't want it crippled or removed.

Q Now, tell the Committee what are the peculiar conditions in that section of country down there that imperatively require the presence of Rangers?

A Well, the peculiar condition of our border there as regards the boundary line is one that necessitates the presence of Rangers. As the crow flies, from Brownsville to the mouth of the river it is twenty miles; following the meanderings of the river it is more than a hundred miles. The river is lined on both sides with heavy thickets and undergrowth.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: Mr. Knight, the Committee has heard many times as to the condition of the river, and they have agreed to cut that out.

MR. KNIGHT: All right. I am satisfied with that if the Committee is.

Q Now, the bandit troubles were greatly improved and practically brought to an end some time ago. Now, what part, in your judgment, did the Rangers display and what did they do that brought the bandit trouble to a better state of affairs and condition?

A The bandit trouble was brought to an end in our country by the co-operation of the Rangers, the citizens and the United States all working in harmony, working together, and the bandit troubles ceased there when those agencies made it unpopular to propagate raids.

Q Did the Rangers give full co-operation and assistance to the local authorities and the people down there in cleaning up that country of its banditti?

A So far as I know; I heard no complaint.

2 Now, when did General Nafarette leave Matamoras with reference to the time the bandit trouble closed--before or after?

A My recollection is that Nafarette did not leave Matamoras until some time after things had gotten clear on the American side--some three or four or five months, is my recollection.

2 He was still there when the Rangers arrived, wasn't he?

A Yes, sir.

2 And stayed there some time afterwards?

A Yes, sir.

2 And the trouble ceased soon after the Rangers' arrival, is your recollection?

A Well, we had trouble there in 1915 and also in 1916.

2 Yes. Now, you have been in the room and heard testimony regarding the exodus of Mexicans from this side to the other side. You have stated your facilities for knowing the sentiment there generally of those who left as well as those who remained. Tell the Committee whether that was due to the presence of Rangers or to the registration laws--military laws?

A The exodus of 1915 and of 1916 was brought about by the state of war that existed on the American side of the border on account of the bandit raids and was participated in by, as I have already stated, United States soldiers, citizens of that country, and the Rangers. Some of the people who crossed the border were no doubt afraid, possibly, of Rangers, but I think I know that a very small---the Rangers played a very small factor in running them across the river in 1916 and 1917---in 1915 and 1916. The exodus of 1917 and 1918, so far as I was ever able to find out--and I made strenuous efforts to find out, because our labor was constantly leaving us, was brought about by two agencies-

C Yes, sir.

A --first, the spreading of German propaganda, and, second, the operation of the Selective Service law.

& Yes, sir.

A The Rangers played no part in the exodus of those two years.

2 Now, just give the Committee your opinion of the real state of the public mind there during those raids?

A Well, during those raids it was simply a state of war; every home almost was an arsenal.

2 Were the people in terror--in a state of terror and apprehension?

A They were in a state of terror. If I am not transgressing, I will illustrate by an incident that happened in San Benito in in the bandit raid in 1916.

& Yes, sir.

Q Out of the conditions that existed misunderstandings were growing, and the Mexican population of San Benito is nearly all of it on one side of the river while the American is on the other; the town is divided, and they call one "Mexico" and the other the American part of town.

2 Yes, sir.

A Things grew so strenuous for two or three days it looked like we would have a race war in our town; those who had been our best friends on the Mexican side didn't know who to trust or who to believe. I pleaded for two days with some of my friends to go across the river with me and call a meeting and address them. My best friends laughed at me and called me a fool.

2 Why?

A They said, "Your life is in danger if you cross over there."

I said, "I can reason with them."

I succeeded in getting the Mayor to call a meeting over there, but he would not attend. At the last hour two or three men who had agreed to go backed down. I said, "I am going if I have to go by myself."

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir--showing the tension there between the two races. I think it is very important.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: All right.

A Finally two of my fellow townsmen agreed to go with me. I think there must have been a thousand Mexicans waiting to meet us, and I spoke to them through an interpreter for half an hour, explained to them that our interests in the country were mutual, we were their friends and wanted to regard them as our friends, and law-abiding Mexicans should be protected just as much as the American people, and it absolutely allayed the strain in San Benito and the next day everything was free and easy.

& The tension was eased?

A Yes, sir.

2 Now, a good deal has been said about the regalia or garb or dress of the Rangers. Is there anything peculiar about it as compared with that of river guards and cowboys in that country?

A No, sir, I don't think so; I have always regarded the Ranger dressed as needed to perform his work,--nothing sensational that I have discovered.

Q Is there anything different in it from time immemorial?

A It is just as I have been in the habit of seeing it.

Q Now, Mr. Jessup, there has been a good deal of testimony lugged into the record regarding the disappearance of one Florencio Garcia. Did you know Florencio Garcia?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was he an employee of your Piper Plantation at the time he was apprehended?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, subsequently a lot of scattered bones were discovered, and an attempt has been made to identify those as constituting the skeleton of Florencio Garcia. Now, I will ask you to begin at the beginning and give the Committee the full history of that case and why he was apprehended and the whole thing as you now recall it--first, was he on the plantation when you went there?

A Yes, sir, he was on the plantation when I went there.

2 All right.

A About three or four months before we lost our cattle I was informed by a ranchman from Mexico that Florencio Garcia and his brother-in-law, who was also working on the plantation, had been run out of Mexico because they were cattle thieves.

MR. CANALES: Who is that ranchman? please name him.

A Mr. Reeder, from Mexico.

Q He was a ranchman in the Republic of Mexico?

A Yes, sir. He brought the information to me that those two men ought to be watched. I diseussed it with Mr. James

A. Brown and asked him whether we should discharge them or not, and decided not to discharge them, but to leave them where they were.

2 He was one of the owners of the plantation?

A Yes, sir. So they remained in the service. Mr. Garcia was herdsman of what we called the dry herd of cattle, left with them all the time, and had instructions to count them every day and if one was missing to report it immediately.

When we lost our large bunch of cattle we found-

Q That's the thirty-seven head?

A Yes, sir---found out that the cattle had been gone some four or five days before it was reported to us.

MR. MeMILLIN: How did you find it out?

A Found out how they crossed the river and the place they crossed and so on; and so I said to my superintendent of the plantation, "It looks very suspicious to me that the cattle should be gone this length of time and we not hear of it before."

He said it did look strange. The Rangers came on down there, as I have already reported, and probably a week or nearly a week after they came into that vicinity the Rangers went to the plantation one day at the noon hour and took Mr. Garcia away with them.

2 Were you there?

Roueur

A No, sir.

& Did you know that the Rangers were going there at that time?

A No, sir, I didn't.

2 Now, when you were making the examination in an effort to detect what became of those cattle, in what way they were driven and when, were there any horse tracks or other things that connected Florencio Garcia with their crossing the river?

A Yes, sir. Garcia rode a horse shod in front-

MR. CANALES: Do you know that of your own knowledge?

A How?

MR. CANALES: Do you know that of your own knowledge?

A Yes, sir, I know it.

MR. CANALES: Did you follow the tracks?

A I went down there.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Mr. Canales, don't interrupt the witness. You can ask that on cross examination.

Q Go ahead.

A He rode a horse shod in front, the only one shod in that character on the plantation. The shoe was rather a peculiarly shaped shoe, a large, smooth shoe, rather round. The tracks at the river bank revealed the fact that that kind of a horse had been prancing around there in the sand close to the river bank at the same time evidently cattle tracks were made there.

0 Were the cattle tracks plainly visible too?

A Yes, sir.

Q How many cattle were in that dry herd that were under the immediate supervision of Florencio Garcia?

A In that particular herd at that time probably about two hundred and fifty head.

2 Yes, sir.

A We had 850 head on the place.

2 Yes, sir. Now, then, the Rangers came about noon and got him?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, just go ahead and tell all you know about it.

A All I know about it is absolutely hearsay; I know by reason of just knowing as it came to me in an absolutely direct way that they went with this man to Point Isabel, stayed overnight there-

SENATOR WILLIFORD: Well, that is hearsay; we don't want it.

A Well, it is hearsay; I don't know a thing about it personally.

SENATOR WITT: I would like to hear it.

MR. KNIGHT: Your Honor, I see no reason for any impatience on the part of the Committee. This is the first witness we have had on that line.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I think so.

MR. KNIGHT: We have as much right to have it as the newspapers on the other side.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Judge Knight, I don't appreciate your remarks. I am discharging my duty--

MR. KNIGHT: I don't doubt it.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I am following the testimony, and shall rule on all objections promptly.

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I will ask counsel not to make remarks of that character.

MR. KNIGHT: We are trying the best we can to help you. We have no interest except to get the truth.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: The witness says he don't know anything about it.

MR. KNIGHT: Well, they have been doing it for a week.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Proceed.

Q Now, Mr. Jessup, Senator Witt says he would like to hear it. Just go ahead and state what you know.

A They started from the plantation with this man about noon, went over to Point Isabel, about twenty miles East on the coast, stayed over night in Point Isabel, left next morning about nine o'clock coming in the direction of San Benito and Brownsville to a point where the road forks leading to the two towns, the Rangers taking the road towards San Benito accompanied by Florencio Garcia and little Charley Stark and the two soldiers with him taking the road on towards Brownsville. I will say I got it from reliable information. Further than that I know absolutely nothing.

0 Yes, sir. Did you ever go to the scene of the discovery of the bones?

A I did not.

Q You had nothing further to do with it?

A No, sir.

SENATOR WITT: Do you know the names of the Rangers who had the man in charge?

A No, sir, I did not know them at that time; I have heard them.

SENATOR WITT: What are their names?

A Sadler was one and Locke the other. I believe I am correct in that.

2 Now, Mr. Jessup, you were on the local Exemption Board in your town?

A Yes, sir.

2 You heard the testimony of Mr. Canales in relation to his stenographer's being selected and his disappearance into Mexico and his connection therewith. Now, will you kindly and in the briefest possible compass tell the Committee what occurred regarding that, and in your own way?

A I don't remember the name of the young man. When his paper came before the Board we looked at that one just as we tried to all others to see what the papers showed; found that he was a single man, early in the twenties; that he claimed deferred classification, that he had a dependent father and mother, aged and infirm, and several younger brothers and sisters. The paper also showed that he was earning a salary of considerably less than thirty dollars per month. We immediately placed this man in Class A-1.

Q One minute. What did the questionnaire show with reference to the actual age of those parents that were aged and infirm?

A That they were both considerably younger than myself.

2 Now, what did it show with reference to a continuity of--

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Will you pardon me a minute?

MR. KNICHT: Yes, sir.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I will be glad if you will have that put in the record.

Q Do you remember their ages as stated in the questionnaire?

A Going to make me tell my age?

2 Yes.

A They were less than fifty years of age, both of them.

2 All right.

A They had quite a large family of children, some of whom were very young.

& Now, what was the similarity, if any, between the reasons for being put in a deferred class as contained in that questionnaire and those that were contained in the questionnaires of other young Mexicans?

A No, as I stated before, we placed this man immediately in Class A-1. Judge Canales came to see me in reference to the matter and asked me if I did not know that this was his stenographer, and I said I did not, those papers all looked alike to me, and I didn't know that to be the case; he explained that he was his stenographer and that his father was in frail health and he thought he ought to be deferred for that reason. After talking the matter over we suggested that if one of the reputable physicians of the city would examine the father and make a sworn statement to the Board that he was in such a critical condition that the son should be left at home we would reconsider the matter, all of which was done, and we changed the boy to third class and left him in Judge Canales' office.

Later on we got instructions from the Department that we must recomb our list and get more men; every Board was informed that they had men that ought not to be deferred. Later on we were compelled, on our oath, to take this boy, so we put him back in Class 1. The Judge talked to me again about it and seemed rather surprised that we should have ruled as we did and so expressed himself, and when I stood on the ruling he said, "May the Lord help you!" and said he would appeal it to the District Board, and the District Board sustained the Local Board, but the boy didn't stay in America long enough to hear from it--he went to the other side.

2 Now, Mr. Jessup, the pay of a private soldier in the Army was how much?

A Thirty dollars a month.

Q Board and clothes thrown in?

A Yes.

2 Expenses paid. What was that young man receiving as salary as shown by his questionnaire?

A My best recollection is that it was six dollars a week, twenty-four dollars a month; I won't swear that it was, but it was considerably less than thirty dollars a month.

Q Now, then, that's the last you have heard of him?

A Yes, sir.

2 Now, do you recall the record of your county with reference to the number eligible to the selective service, the number that were aliens and deficients, the number that were delinquents or deserters, and the number that enlisted in the Army? Take those figures there and see if they are correct, at the top, for Cameron County.

A These figures are probably made up after the second registration.

Q Yes, sir.

A I resigned from the Board just prior to the second registration. I remember distinctly in our first registration we had 2354 registrants in Cameron County. The Board was compelled to call and examine every man who appeared in order to get our first quota of 229 men. I can't state the exact number of those who never appeared, but it was in the neighborhood of forty per cent, those who had registered never answered then call when they were called for examination; we found that those people were across the river largely.

Q Yes, sir. These figures, you think, were made after the second registration?

A Those figures were made after the second registration.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

taoh

CROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

Q Mr. Jessup, you said you never knew Gustavo Vera before I called your attention to the fact that you had placed him in Class A-1?

A I knew there was a Mexican boy working in your office, Judge, but I didn't know his name.

2 Don't you know that he worked for you--that I loaned him to you and Mr. Jones and he worked for you several weeks?---Mr. Dancy was my partner at that time?

A He worked for the Board several days, but I didn't know his name, and when his paper came before us I didn't know him from a thousand others.

Q Don't you know that the first one that called your attention to that was Mr. Dancy and not me?

A No, I don't remember.

d Do you mean to say that Mr. Dancy did not talk to you?

A I don't know; he possibly did talk to me. I remember distinctly that you did.

2 Now, don't you know that we selected Dr. Spivey, who was State Quarantine Officer and, I think, City Physician at the time, and everybody said he would be agreeable, and Dr. Spivey said that his father was incapacitated for doing work, in his affidavit?

A That is correct. I have already stated that we sent a physician.

2 Isn't it a fact that two other reputable physicians testified that he had been in that condition for nearly two years?

A I don't remember whether we had other testimony on that or not.

2 Do you remember that there were three other affidavits attached there?

A No, sir, I don't remember that. We had a great many.

2 Don't you know that he first appeared before you before the questionnaires and was examined and was turned down by the physician because he himself could not pass the physical examination?

A No, sir, I don't remember that.

2 Don't you know that his questionnaire showed that the average that he had earned during the year was about eight dollars a week, but that he was making forty dollars for the last three months?

A It didn't show that. You raised his salary the second time before the paper came before us.

2 Don't you know that he was making forty dollars?

A The second time?

No, sir, he was making fifty dollars the second time. I made an affidavit to that. Since you changed him from Class 3 to Class A-1 he had been raised ten dollars more, which made it fifty dollars a month?

A No, sir, that is not my recollection.

2 Well, do you say that is not true?

A I say he was earning less than he would have earned in the Army, thirty dollars a month, according to his questionnaire.

Q Don't you know that the question asked the average for the whole year-that's the question in the questionnaire?

A I will state again that the questionnaire placed before us showed that the boy was receiving less wages than he would have received in the Army.

Q I will ask you to state whether or not that was not in answer to a question asking the average monthly earning for the last year?

A I don't remember that.

2 Well, you seem to remember these other things, Mr. Jessup.

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, isn't it a fact that I told you at the time that his condition existed exactly the same and that if he was entitled to go in Class 3, that there was no reason why you should put him back to 1-A?

A Yes, sir, but the United States Government had told us that conditions had changed across the water and we would have to have some of the boys now that we had passed up before.

Q You didn't change Mr. Cuerto at all.

A We sent Mr. Cuerto to the Medical Advisory Board at Corpus Christi twice and the doctors sent him back each time; that's no fault of the Board.

Q Now, coming back to last March when you came to ask for aid, don't you remember--who was the man that came with you to Austin to see the Governor?

A I think Mr. Foley from San Benito came with me.

2 Do you remember the time you went to the MeDonald Flats to talk to me on Sunday?

A Yes, sir.

Q Do you remember the conversation you had with me that afternoon before Mr. Foley in regard to getting Rangers?

A No, sir, I don't remember what we said up there.

Q Don't you remember you told me you didn't want Rangers, but you wanted relief and if you could not get any other kind of relief you will take Rangers?

A No, sir, I don't remember saying that.

Q Don't you know that you made me go and make an engagement with the Governor and you made substantially that same statement to the Governor before Mr. Foley, that you needed relief but you folks didn't want Rangers, because it would alarm the Mexican people, and if you could not get any other kind of relief you will take that?

A Well, now, since you have mentioned that feature of it, I will explain that we did say to the Governor that if he could bring influence to bear on the Commander at Fort Sam Houston to send a large force of soldiers down there we would take soldiers; if they could not do that, we wanted Rangers, and wanted them right away.

2 Why didn't you want Rangers if the Rangers were so infinitely better than soldiers?

A Well, personally I was in favor of having Rangers.

2 You didn't tell that to me?

A I did not?

2 You didn't tell that to the Governor?

MR. MOSES: That is argument.

0 Did you?

A I can't remember; I can't tell you everything that occurred that day, Joe.

Q Don't you remember the time you and I' and Mr. Hanson and Captain Taylor went to the Piper plantation, that the reason was that the people were afraid of being arrested promiscuously by the Rangers, brought into town and put in jail, and that you people were not consulted about it--that was one of the complaints I had to make and was one of the things that was discussed at that meeting at the Chamber of Commerce?

A No, I don't think that had any bearing on the case. The thing we went to the Piper plantation to relieve was the crossing into Mexico to avoid the operation of the draft law.

2 Mr. Jessup, let me remind you, didn't you make that statement to the Mexican people, and I acted as your interpreter, and you made the request that if there were any persons in your employ that had failed to comply with the registration the officers should furnish the names and you would send them to town rather than come there and arrest them?

A Yes, I did that.

2 Why did you do that? why did you make that request?

A To show the Mexican people down there that we wanted to co-operate with them and keep them out of all sorts of trouble. Those people being picked up around there were not by the Rangers, but by county officials and registration authorities, some not knowing that they should register, and the fact that those officials had been going and picking them up to my positive knowledge. During the twelve months I was on the Board no person was apprehended and brought before the Board by Rangers; the others had brought them there in bunches.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Repeat that.

A I say, in the twelve months I was on the Board there were no deserters or slackers ever brought to the Board by the Rangers; they were brought there by some Deputy Sheriffs and some of the Immigration officials there. We were kept busy fixing up papers for deserters and slackers, but I don't recall a single instance in which a Ranger brought any to the Board; that is my recollection; if I am wrong I would like to be corrected.

2 I think you are correct. You made the request of the Ranger Captain who was just coming in to instruct the Rangers not to arrest any individual on the plantation before giving an opportunity to you or to your foreman to bring him to the Board and that you would co-operate with them and bring him at your expense?

A I no doubt made the same request that I made to other officials, that if there was anybody wanted on the plantation and they would let us know we would deliver him without any disturbance or arrest on the place; that is our rule and our understanding with all the officials, immigration and others.

Q Now, you made the very strong statement that the Rangers-

I mean that as soon as the Rangers were placed on the Piper

plantation that it stopped stealing completely, and then the

statement about Mr. Cunningham when he was killed, which was

about fifteen miles North of town?

A Yes.

Q That there was a great deal of stealing through there, but

no Rangers were there. I wish to remind you---

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Mr. Canales, you must interrogate the

witness and not make statements.

MR. CANALES: I am cross examining him.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: You have practiced law long enough to

know that you must interrogate him by specific questions.

MR. CANALES: Yes, sir, but I first predicate it with the

testimony, substantially.

2 Now, isn't it a fact that Rangers were stationed at Ranchito

Esparza, about two and a half miles from where Mr. Cunningham

was killed?

A I know nothing absolutely about it.

Q And also that Rangers were stationed at San Benito, about

six miles away?

A No, sir, I didn't know any were stationed at San Benito.

2 You talk about the bandit trouble and activities there and

your general knowledge of it. I ask you to name a single

time when you went to help anybody or protect anybody during

that time--assist anybody physically who needed assistance during

that time?

A I was not out on a single expedition. As I explained, I

was in charge of a mercantile business in San Benito and my time

was devoted to that store. I have explained what I tried to

do to allay feeling in San Benito, but I was not out on any of

the raids. I was trying to get guns and ammunition there

fast enough for the other fellows. (Laughter.)

Q Now, you talk about the exodus of Mexicans, that the exodus

in 1915 and in 1916 were not caused by slackers, that the exodus

in 1918 to which I called your attention a while ago was wholly

caused by registration. I ask you whether it is not a fact

that it was also caused by the fact that the Federal officers

would go into the various plantations and arrest Mexicans on

mere suspicion for not registering or not complying with the

draft, lugging them into jail and keeping them sometimes a day

or two, and then find out they had already registered and did

not violate the law?

A I have already explained that the Federal officers spent a

good deal of their time in such work, and I have explained that

that was in the operation of the selective service law.

2 The Rangers had nothing to do with that?

A So far as I know, there can be nothing attributable to Rangers

in the exodus of 1917 and 1918.

e In fact, they did not participate in enforcing the selective

draft law?

A During 1917 we didn't have them down at Brownsville; they

didn't come to Brownsville until in April or early in May, 1918.

Q Now, Mr. Jessup, can you name a single instance, not only

from your knowledge but even from hearsay, of a United States

soldier during 1915, 1916, 1917 or 1918 having captured Mexican

persons and killing them?

A United States soldiers?

Q Yes, sir, after they were captured?

A No, sir, I don't know of any.

Q Now, you know Mr. Kibbe?

A Well, which one?

2 Frank W. Kibbe?

A Yes, sir.

2 What sort of a man is he---isn't he a reliable man and a man

well acquainted with the Mexicans and the situation there?

A So far as I know.

& If Mr. Kibbe says that man Garcia, who had been working for

him a number of years, was a law-abiding man, do you believe

that his testimony is good?

MR. MOSES: We object to that. Has Mr. Kibbe been here?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: The only reference to his testimony was

that testified to this morning, that the special officer of the

Mexican Government-

MR. MOSES: Well, if he testified to that, all right, but

we don't think it is proper cross examination.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I don't think it is proper cross examina¬

tion.

2 Mr. Kibbe had been there a long time?

A Mr. Kibbe had been manager there the year prior to my going

there.

2 He went there very frequently?

A No, sir, he didn't go there frequently; he went there about

once a week, and they had a lot of Mexican laborers on the plan¬

tation, so I don't think he became intimately acquainted with

any of them.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Knight.

2 Mr. Jessup, counsel asked you if American soldiers have ever

killed a prisoner after having captured him. I will ask you

if Mexican soldiers across the river have not killed American

officers and soldiers after they captured them?

MR. CANALES: I don't think that is material, Your Honor.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I don't think it is necessary to go

into that.

MR. KNIGHT: I will state that this warfare down there

11f

grows out of a peculiar situation. The war is on the Mexican

banditti, and of course there are American outlaws down there.

Counsel is now showing that the American soldiers did not exe¬

cute prisoners. He is also constantly endeavoring to show

that some one Ranger Captain did that. Now, I want to show

that the Mexican soldiers did exactly what he condemns the Texas

Ranger for doing, and it was not Mexicans they were fighting.

I just want to show that there are two sides to every question.

I want to show---if Mr. Jessup does not know of any instance,

all right, but if he does it would be well to let it go in the

record for what it is worth.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Judge, if you indicate that this testi¬

mony would relate to the action of any person on this side of

the river or attributed even by hearsay to the Rangers I would

think it is admissible, but otherwise it is not.

MR. MOSES: We will agree that no prisoner ought to be

killed--that no officer ought to let a prisoner be killed, and

also that a negro who is charged with an outrage on a white

woman ought not to be mobbed, but they do it just the same. If

Mexican soldiers on the other side of the river murder our sol¬

diers when they capture them or our people when they take them

over there it would arouse a feeling of ill will and anger on

the part of the men on this side, and while it would not justify

it it would palliate it to some extent, just like the people who

mobbed that negro up at Hillsboro in broad, open daylight; while

it is not justification, yet you don't feel in your heart that

condemnation which you might feel-

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: There may be conditions under which we

might go into that, but I don't think we have authority to do

so at this time.

MR. KNIGHT: All right. That's all.

xas State Library and Archives Commission

EXAMINATION BY MR. TIDWELL.

Q You indicated about how many Rangers were located in Browns¬

ville in 1917 and 1918?

A In 1917 we didn't have any Rangers in the immediate vicinity

of Brownsville. The Rangers that I have been talking about

having any dealings with came there in the Spring of 1918.

Q Do you know whether or not there were any Rangers located in

Brownsville in 1916?

A I don't know whether they had a camp or headquarters there

or not. The Rangers were in there at that time operating in

connection with the citizens and the United States Army all

along the border, but in very small numbers as compared with

citizens or troops.

2 Do you know of any instance in which Rangers in the city of

Brownsville have acted in an illegal or overbearing way towards

law-abiding citizens?

A No, sir, I don't know of any.

MR. KNIGHT: I am glad you asked that question. I over¬

looked it.

2 Do you remember the condition that existed in about January,

1917, or December, 1916, when General Parker was in command of

that post?

A Yes, sir, I think I am fairly familiar with it.

Q Do you remember whether or not it is true that time after time

the Government corrals were raided there and Captain Conger was

constantly on the alert for them---did you know Captain Conger?

A No, sir, I didn't know Captain Conger.

2 Do you know General Parker?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you hear anything of the outbreaks in the latter part of

January or February when they were corralled there and the

cavalry were after them for a number of days?

A The date I don't remember. It is possible you have in

mind calling on the United States troops at the Galveston ranch

South and West of San Benito when they were fired on and some

killed.

2 About how many killed?

A I think there were two or three Americans killed; they were

ambushed.

Q Do you remember the date of that outbreak?

A No, sir, I don't remember the date of it. Then the United

States troops were fired on together with citizens over North

and East of San Benito and one soldier killed at Scribner's

ranch.

2 Do you remember the date of that?

A I can't remember exactly, but it was rather early in what we

term the bandit raids.

MR. TIDWELL: That's all.

EXAMINATION BY MR. LACKEY.

2 Mr. Jessup, have you ever seen Rangers in an intoxicated con¬

dition in the streets of Brownsville or in saloons?

A I have never seen any Rangers in an intoxicated condition in

Brownsville, either in saloons or out. I did not go in the

saloons myself, and we haven't had any there for some time, and

I have no recollection as to seeing any of the boys in a saloon,

and I have never seen a Ranger on the streets acting in an

unbecoming manner.

MR. LACKEY: That's all.

142

Sta

Lik

y

F. H. BURMEISTER,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Knight.

2 Judge, where do you reside?

A I reside in McMullen County.

Q What is the county seat?

A Tilden.

& How long have you been on the border?

A Thirty-seven years.

0 Have you held any official positions down there?

A A few. I was County Surveyor for ten years in McMullen

County, a member of the Twenty-fourth Legislature in 1895, County

Judge of MeMullen County, and Distriet Attorney of the Thirty¬

sixth District.

2 Name the counties in that district.

A Well, now, that is hard to say, because they were shifted a

time or two, but LaSalle, DeWitt, Frio, Wilson, Karnes, Bee,

San Patricio, Aransas and MeMullen.

2 Is that all? (Laughter)

A They were shifted once or twice.

2 I understand.

A Then I became a member of the Thirty-third and Thirty-fourth

Legislatures.

& The Thirty-fourth Legislature assembled what year?

A The Thirty-fourth assembled in 1915.

2 You are an attorney?

A A little bit.

2 How long have you practiced law down there?

A Twenty-five years.

Q You are also a ranchman, are you not?

A I am.

112

Q Have you been in close and intimate contact with the people

in that country down there during your long residence?

A My personal experience covers Nueces County, Duval County,

LaSalle County, Webb County, and my own county, and everything

North from there and to El Paso. I have no experience in what

they call the Valley.

d All right. Now, then, Judge, are you acquainted---are you

advised of the fact that there has been an exodus of Mexicans

from this side of the river to the other side for the last three

or four years during those troublous times?

A Yes, sir, most of ours ran away.

2 Did you have any Rangers up in your country?

A Not in the last ten or twelve years.

Q Yes, sir.

A They appeared in the county in which I have my office about

eight months ago. They were kind enough, four of them, to

come to my office and notify me that they did not come to see

the lawyer, but came to see the cowman and wanted assistance.

2 Yes, sir.

A They broke up the cattle stealing proposition that had been

going on for about seven years in the neighborhood. We could

not find testimony enough to do anything, because the men who

were finally arrested were brothers of the Sheriff.

Q Well, did the Rangers assist you in bringing them to justice?

A Well, I assisted them. I was not engaged either in the

prosecution or defense.

Q They were prosecuted and convicted?

at bott

A Yes, sir. They got continuances once or twice.

That's the only time they have been in that section?

A In that part of the country.

2 You say there was an exodus from that section?

A Well, we could not put them in the United States Army.

S

1124

2 What was the cause of that exodus? was it the visit of those

four Rangers?

A Well, I would rather not state that, because I held another

office or two.

2 What is that?

A Well, I was Appeal Agent by appointment of the Governor in

the draft cases and I tried to put them in the Army, and I could

not find them.

Well, they had disappeared?

A They had gone.

2 Well, in your opinion what was the occasion of their going?

A Well, they didn't want to put on the United States uniform.

2 It could not have been that visit of the Rangers there six

or eight months ago?

A Oh, no, sir, we haven't been afraid of the Rangers.

& Now, Judge, the other day I believe you were present when

Mrs. Yeager was on the stand?

A Yes, sir.

2 And she related a controversy over the tank on her place, in

which she mentioned Captain Oscar Thompson?

A Yes, sir.

0 Rangers and so forth. Now, I will get you to state whether

or not in a suit brought there to enjoin certain parties from

using that water hole you recall Oscar Thompson was ultimately

impleaded as a party defendant and you represented anybody in

that litigation?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: It has been suggested that both members

of the Senate in attendance today have been called into the

Senate. Let's suspend until they return.

112

MR. KNIGHT: All right.

(Thereupon the proceedings were suspended for a few minutes.)

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, let's have order now. Senator

Williford is here.

Q Now, Mr. Burmeister, when we stopped--you were counsel in

that case for whom?

A For Mr. Oscar Thompson.

Q Was that case tried?

A It was tried.

2 Did you hear all the facts sworn to there in court?

A Every word of it.

2 Now, Mr. Burmeister, just go ahead and tell the Committee in

your own way all about that transaction from beginning to end.

MR. CANALES: I simply object to this as an immaterial and

irrelevant point, that it could not possibly have any bearing on

either side of this case.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, I am not clear in my recollection

of Mrs. Yeager's testimony, but I think her reference to Judge

Burmeister was entirely on cross examination, was it not?

MR. KNIGHT: It was on what the Rangers did. Her attack,

if anything, was against the Ranger Force.

MR. CANALES: I wish to remind you--

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Wait just a minute.

MR. MOSES: Before you finally rule-

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, we will hear you.

MR. MOSES: I was not here at the time Mrs. Yeager testi¬

fied, but read the account in the Dallas News; it was rather an

extended account, and I presume the reporter will admit an

accurate account. The substance of her testimony was, she

testified to two propositions, one of which Mr. Burmeister

knows nothing about; one was in regard to some misconduct of

Rangers in San Benito; then she testified in reference to what

she termed the outrageous conduct of Rangers at her residence,

in which Oscar Thompson was the principal party, but it became

material because a Ranger was backing Thompson up. Now, all

that is involved in that law suit. In this same suit referred

to she asked, I believe, for something like fifty thousand

dollars against Mr. Thompson, or maybe twenty thousand, by

reason of that misconduct of his in the presence of a Ranger.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I understand, though, that that entire

matter was brought out on cross examination, and it showed up

here that she did not file the suit, but that it was brought

by Thompson and she filed a cross bill.

MR. MOSES: Well, if she stated it was filed by Thompson

that is not correct. The lady was mistaken if she testified

that. It was a suit filed by Timberlake---

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, she said other parties brought

the suit. I may be wrong in saying Thompson.

MR. MOSES: She impleaded Thompson.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That is true.

MR. CANALES: I want to say that the principle of law and

evidence is that you can't bring in cross examination anything

to lay a predicate to impeach the witness. All the matter was

brought out on cross examination, not by myself. Judge Knight

can't come up here and try to impeach a witness for saying

things he brought out on cross examination. That is an abuse

of the principles of evidence, so far as I know.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I think a predicate for impeachment can

be laid on cross examination.

MR. KNIGHT: That is the only time it can be laid.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: The only question is whether up to the

time of the cross examination it was on a material issue.

MR. MOSES: It was in reference to misconduct of Rangers.

THE WITNESS: Will the Committee hear me?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: No, you are a witness.

THE WITNESS: I am a lawyer.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, I will ask you to occupy your

place as a witness.

THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, I was present here when

the examination of that witness took place.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, if you will keep your seat it will

expedite matters. As far as I am concerned, you can go ahead

with the evidence, unless other members of the Committee take a

different view. In so far as you may desire to interrogate

him with reference to the truth or falsity of any statements

made by her, we are willing to hear it, but not as to laying

out the tract of land and the inception of the trouble.

MR. KNIGHT: Well, I could interrogate him, but it would

save time for him to go ahead.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, I want the examination to be in

bounds.

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Now, so far as it relates to her examina¬

tion, go ahead. I have tried some boundary line cases.

Q Judge, in the evidence in that trial was it not developed that

Oscar Thompson and others were sent for by this little woman and

that they did not voluntarily go to her place?

A In order for the Committee to understand this question,

Gibbens and Timberlake filed suit for injunction against Mrs.

Yeager and her husband. She had one hundred acres in one

place and 640 in another. The suit was filed in August, 1914,

and I was then a member of the Legislature and was in Austin. I

knew nothing of these parties. During the special session

1120

Mr. Yeager came up here and stated to me that his wife, who

lived in McMullen County, had a law suit and would like to see

me. I informed him that on my return home I would see her.

By accident I met her in San Antonio, and she informed me that

she had employed Mr. Bullitt and W. W. Walling, two lawyers.

When court met I came on the Ilth of November and found out

that Mr. Bullitt and Mr. Walling had filed an answer in which

they impleaded Mr. Oscar Thompson and asked for fifty thousand

dollars for maltreatment, blowing up a dam, drinking and carous¬

ing in her house.

ng to thnt.

And threatening her?

oo

A That was the allegation. I have it here--the Committee

can read the pleading if they want to have it introduced.

0 All right.

A Mr. Thompson was an old client of mine. I notified Mr.

Bullitt I could not join in that case at all, and I answered for

Mr. Thompson, which was filed five or six months after that, I

think. The venue was changed and the case was tried at

Cotulla before Judge Mullally. As leading counsel for Mr.

Thompson, I represented that end of the case. It was proved

on the trial that these gentlemen met in about a quarter of a

mile of this lady's house, with her son, surveying to find out

how much of the water belonged to her--ran a line there on the

East of the windmill, and the balance of the windmill and the

well were on the Thompson land.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: We had the other day a matter coming

before us in which the testimony was ostensibly given as contain¬

ed in a book. I don't think testimony heard in that court

down there is testimony here.

THE WITNESS: I undertake, Your Honors, to allege the facts

that were developed in this case; I was present.

s State Library and Archives Commission

SENATOR WILLIFORD: I don't think that is testimony, Mr.Burmeister.

THE WITNESS: Well, possibly we differ and this Committee

will have to rule. These matters were developed under oath

in my presence.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I will hold that it is not proper testi¬

mony and those facts can not be established in that way.

THE WITNESS: Her own admissions?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Her own admissions, yes.

THE WITNESS: I am coming to that.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: The point objected to by Judge Williford

is your statement that these parties met at a certain place and

did certain things. That is clearly not admissible, and we

could not tell what you were coming to, and the objection to

that part of the testimony-

MR. MOSES: Now, Your Honor, the agent of the Carranza

Government made certain investigations with regard to the death

of Florencio Garcia and his conclusions reduced to writing, but

nevertheless conclusions, just the same, from his investigations

were introduced by Mr. Canales to establish the fact that the

Rangers named murdered somebody. Now, the investigations of

a number of witnesses have been introduced on both sides who

had investigated the transaction and have testified to the result

of their investigations.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Excuse me.

MR. MOSES: Yes, sir.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: There is another call for the Senator

to come back to the Senate Chamber. Now, I doubt the propriety

of proceeding in the absence of both Senators. We will take

a short recess.

(Thereupon the Committee recessed from 3.40 P. M. until

(3.45 P. M.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, we have a Senator with us.

Let's proceed. Let's have order in the house.

MR. KNIGHT: Gentlemen, in my judgment it won't take ten

minutes to tell the whole thing.

MR. MOSES: If the Court please, I may be in error, but

my recollection---I don't pretend to say, I read it in a news¬

paper and don't say that I remember it accurately, but my recol¬

lection is that the substance of her testimony was--it was prob¬

ably brought out on eross examination--that Thompson and a lot

of men, among the men a Ranger or Rangers---

MR. KNIGHT: Rangers.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Wait a minute. We must have some order

out there where that talking is. Go ahead, Judge.

MR. MOSES: In other words, that these men went up to her

house and raised a rough house at her place of their own initia¬

tive; in other words, a bunch of ruffians went up there drinking

and cursing.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That was not testified to; there was no

testimony about any eursing there.

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, Your Honor, sure there was.

MR. LACKEY: Yes, there was.

MR. MOSES: It was in the Dallas News.

MR. CROWELL (of the Dallas News): It was not in the News.

MR. MOSES: I don't mean the language, but that they acted

in a very ungentlemanly manner.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That was in the testimony.

MR. MOSES: And that those men did not come on her invita¬

tion, and she testified to what Thompson did, among other things,

and that matter, we think, is admissible as affecting her credi¬

bility and also to see whether that charge was true and the

Rangers she said were present on that occasion.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: She testified one or more Rangers were

in the house and heard the conversation.

MR. MOSES: Now, we have the pleadings and the judgment of

the court as to the result of that, and as a matter of fairness-

I have heard some suggestion also or it was rather intimated

that Mr. Burmeister doublecrossed her. There has been a good

deal about doublecrossing in this case--that Burmeister was her

lawyer and that somebody else came along with more money.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: The testimony was that she met Judge

Burmeister and gave him her papers and some weeks afterwards he

returned them, saying he had represented Mr. Thompson for a num¬

ber of years.

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, sir. Now, I believe I can tell the

Committee what the woman testified--if not ad literatim, in close

substance. She said a bunch of men came there; she knew

Oscar Thompson; that there were Rangers in the crowd whose

names she did not attempt to give; she knew that they were

Rangers on account of their big sixshooters; that there was

nobody there but her and her two children, and that they cursed

and used vile language in the presence of the children, and that

Mr. Thompson was the chief offender and that the Rangers stood

there and permitted it and that Thompson said it was not her

water and if it came to a showdown he would decapitate her and

so forth.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That was the time when you made her

nervous.

MR. KNIGHT: I made her very nervous. We want to show

that they did not go there voluntarily; she invited them, and

she picked the time and the place, and if there was anything

unseemly done it was not done by Mr. Thompson or his attendants,

and that there was but one other man there who had been connected

with the Rangers. Now, Gentlemen, I hope I am not in a deliri¬

ous mood, I love you all, but if you eliminate from this record

hearsay testimony not given under oath, why, the record would be

minimized into practically nothing. We have heard---I didn't

object to it, for the reason that you gentlemen were not a jury,

and that you wanted to get what was really going on, and here

comes a witness who testifies and reflects testimony given under

oath in a judicial hearing and can do it in a brief compass. It

will not take him fifteen minutes.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: Mr. Canales offered a reported case from

the Court of Criminal Appeals and you objected to it.

MR. KNIGHT: It did not pertain to the Rangers at all. I

had no objection to it going before the Committee. I understood

it was eliminated because no Ranger was connected with it. Now,

you will remember I asked the lady, as to the unseemliness of

the crowd, if she in her own mind and heart believed that it was

Oscar Thompson and not the others, as shown by the fact that she

sued only Oscar Thompson, and the Senator here corrected me and

helped her out in this way, and legitimately, that Oscar Thompson

was the plaintiff and she reconvened against him because he was

the plaintiff. Do you remember that circumstance? As matter

of fact, Oscar Thompson was not a plaintiff in the case, and why

should she not have impleaded the others?--sustaining my theory

that all her animus was lodged against Thompson, although the

gravamen of her story was to cast reflection or rather incrimi¬

nate the Ranger service of the State, and if Mr. Canales did not

introduce her for the purpose of impeaching the Ranger service,

what other motive was it? Now, we want to show that she was

mistaken about it.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: My ruling is that it can be shown by

somebody who was present at the time or by her declarations, but

not by statements of other persons.

MR. KNIGHT: All right. I will instruct Judge Burmeister--

of course, in justice to himself he has a right to state his con¬

nection with the case.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: He has already done that.

MR. KNIGHT: Well, I will get him to confine himself to her

own admissions to him in the court.

Q Go ahead, Judge, with that understanding.

A. The case was tried in LaSalle County on the 24th of October,

1916, as I stated, with a jury, before Judge Mullally. Mrs.

Yeager appeared on the stand, and on cross examination she ad¬

mitted that these men were in camp about a quarter of a mile

from her ranch and that an automobile came up and brought her

young son, who had been with the surveying crowd, and she sent

him back and invited Mr. Thompson to come up there. She sent

particular word by the driver of the automobile to tell that

Ranger to come up there, she wanted to see if he had horns.

They went up there. She admitted on examination conducted by

me that the Ranger never came in the house; Mr. Thompson was

in the house, smoking a cigar, and that she objected to that.

She further admitted that she had made a complaint to Governor

Colquitt and that in answer to that complaint Captain Fox of

the Ranger Force called at her house and that she had stated to

Captain Fox that she was not afraid of that bullfrog shaped

Oscar Thompson (Laughter)--she always carried a gun and knew

how to use it.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Now, Gentlemen, I think all this testimony

is absolutely irrelevant to any matter before us at all and shows

1134

that it is not---well, it is not admissible under a single theory

in this case.

MR. KNIGHT: It is her admission in that case when she was

seeking to recover against Oscar Thompson.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, testimony that she was not afraid

of that bullfrog-shaped Thompson and that she carried a gun is

not material.

MR. KNIGHT: That is just a passing incident. Just leave

that out, Mr. Burmeister, and get down to your knitting.

A Well, after the facts the case was submitted to the jury, and

I have here the certified judgment of the court and the verdict

of the jury, in which they say--the jury brought in this verdict:

"lst. We find the plaintiffs' injunction should be perpetuated

as to all the land described in it except the 100 acres owned by

Mrs. Virginia Yeager. 2nd. We find for defendant Mrs. Virginia

Yeager and husband, C. F. Yeager, in the sum of 3100.00 against

the plaintiffs, Geo. N. Gibbens and S. D. Timberlake, for use of

their land and water thereon for three months and four days, end¬

ing Nov. 11th, 1914. Zrd. We find for defendants Mrs. Virginia

Yeager and husband, C. F. Yeager, damages in the sum of 3150.00

against the defendant Oscar Thompson for the use of their land

and water thereon prior to July 7th, 1914. 4th. We find for the

defendant Oscar Thompson on the issue as to the cutting of the dam,

and further find in favor of the defendant Oscar Thompson and

plaintiffs, Geo. N. Gibbens and S. D. Timberlake"-----

SENATOR WILLIFORD: I don't think that is admissible. I

don't like for the record to go out that I agreed to it.

MR. KNIGHT: Gentlemen, she said she recovered judgment

against Thompson on account of his conduct that day.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: No, sir; she was asked about the re¬

covery as to the water and land.

MR. KNIGHT: I asked if she did not sue him for that out¬

11“5

rageous conduct that day and if she did not think it was Oscar

Thompson, and she said "No," she thought the Ranger had something

to do with it. She said she won the case, and did not state the

amount. She did not say she was suing Oscar Thompson for the use

of the land and water, but on account of his ruffianism, and that

she won the case. Now it is before you gentlemen that she recover¬

ed judgment against Thompson because of his abuse of her.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That was not my interpretation of the testi

mony of the lady, and I was attentive to it, because I took an un¬

usual interest in her testimony, and that was not my construction,

that she testified that she recovered judgment against him for his

conduct, but that it was for the use of the water and land.

MR. KNIGHT: Well, if that is the recollection of the rest

of the Committee I will withdraw it.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: That is my recollection.

MR. LACKEY: I asked her who won the suit, and she said

"I did." I thought she won the whole thing.

MR. KNIGHT: And a titter went through the crowd. Now, it

says: "4th. We find for the defendant Oscar Thompson on the issue

as to the cutting of the dam, and further find in favor of the de¬

fendant Oscar Thompson and plaintiffs, Geo. N. Gibbens and S. D.

Timberlake, on the issue as to Mrs. Virginia Yeager's claim against

them for damages for fright and nervous shock." She did sue for

fifty thousand dollars on that account, and she said she won the

damage suit.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: No, that was not the construction I placed

on it. This evidence is taking too broad a range.

Q Now, who was the Ranger there that day, Mr. Burmeister?

A Pat Craighead.

Q Who is he?

A I have known Mr. Pat Craighead for many years. He was born

in Wilson County, the son of an old Sheriff there, been in service

for many years--lost half of his right leg in the service of the

State in some trouble around Kingsville. After he got well he

was kept in the service. He is crippled for life--was then in

service stationed at Hebbronville. After a short residence in

Jim Hogg County, Mr. Thompson left the Sheriff's office, and he was

elected by the people Sheriff of that county and is Sheriff now.

2 Yes, sir. Is he a man of decency and character?

ause they

A Yes, he is, and was.

2 Did you ever know him, as a Ranger or Sheriff, to demean himself

other than as became a courageous, decent, law-abiding officer?

A I did not.

2 What type of man is Oscar Thompson?

A He is a cowman.

2 Is he the present Sheriff down there?

A No, sir, Craighead is Sheriff.

2 He was Sheriff?

A Yes, sir.

Is Oscar Thompson--what is his reputation in that country for

being a man of circumspect conduct in general and in the presence

of ladies in particular?

A Oscar Thompson is a big cowman, got considerable holdings, he

is jovial, and has a very estimable wife and is a good eitizen,

one of the best we have down there.

2 Now, Judge, I want to ask you about who those Rangers were who

made the call there six or eight months ago in the cow stealing

business?

A Well, as I say, I have known Bill Wright for many years; he

was Sheriff of Wilson County during the time I was District

Attorney of the Thirty-sixth Judicial District; before he became

Sheriff he had been in the Ranger service, stationed around

Cotulla; and knew all the Rangers personally that were in

Captain Brooks' company, for whom Brooks County is named, all

47

the men that were in Captain Rogers' company--the Ranger Captain

that got shot all to pieces in Laredo when they attempted to

force the Mexicans to be inoculated with vaccine and they

wouldn't stand it, and in a street fight he got shot all to

pieces. Those men were closely known to me because they

were stationed around in that neighborhood. When some citizen

from Duval County--Judge Luby--sent cattle up in that country

to winter them because we had plenty of pear, those cattle began

to disappear. Two bunches of Rangers came in there. I didn't

meet the first one. One nice day Captain Wright and three

other Rangers came into my office. Mr. Wright had known me

for possibly thirty years. He informed me he did not come to

see the lawyer, but wanted to see the cowman, and wanted help.

He disclosed to me what he had---what he suspicioned. I used

the wire, and we counted some success, and some men are now

under bond to await trial down there for the stealing of Judge

Luby's cattle and stealing of W. A. Low's cattle, a member of

this House here now, and after that I was called in by the

Commissioners Court of Atascosa County; there was some trouble

between the court and the County Treasurer. I came up from

my ranch. There was no Sheriff, no Deputy Sheriff, no Con¬

stable in reach of the court. Iremembered that Ranger Captain

Bill Wright was in camp at Charlotte in that county. I got him

and he came up there.

2 You were looking for trouble?

A Yes, we had had trouble, because one of the relatives of a

member of the Commissioners Court had blessed him out. I called

on another member of Gaptain Wright's company named Franklin and

he came and the outcome of it was that the Treasurer tendered

his resignation. For two days Captain Wright was in the

constant presence of the court, and there was no outbreak.

2 How did Captain Wright and his Rangers conduct themselves

while there?

A Well, they were our neighbors; they were old cronies. This

young Franklin has a twelfth interest in a three hundred and

fifty thousand dollar ranch down there.

Was there any ruffianism practiced by any of them?

A Not that I know of.

Q What has been the character of Captain Wright during the

thirty years you have known him for being a man of sterling in-

tegrity and fairness?

A Captain Wright is one of the most lovable men. He has a

failing; he tries to tell jokes, and on the other fellow. He

is an absolutely fearless officer and one of the finest executive

officers that possibly has ever been in the Ranger service.

2 I will ask you to state if any cattle were recovered through

his visit there for the owners?

A Well, I could not tell that, because cattle were found in the

highways and by-ways. Captain Wright got some of the cattle

while he was down there.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

& Where were you born?

A I was born in Berlin, Germany.

& Where?

A Berlin, Germany--the capital of Germany.

& Just about thirty-seven years.

How many citizens of German birth are over there in your

county?

A Where?

& In your county?

A Not a one; I am the only one.

2 In the adjoining counties?

A I don't know.

Q You are the only German there?

A Yes, sir.

2 In all that county?

A Yes, sir. I am a fully acclimated Texan.

Q Do you feel lonesome there?

A Not at all.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Pass on, Mr. Canales.

Don't you know that the exodus in those counties was due to

German propaganda?

A No, sir; such a thing existing in those counties was not

known, or I would have stopped it.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

MR. TIDWELL: Mr. Burmeister, there was some testimony

by the lady about meeting a Ranger down the road who assaulted

her in a car. Was that fact developed in the District Court?

A No, sir; that happened at San Gabriel.

MR. KNIGHT: No, that was when they arrested the boy.

A You see, this trial was in 1916.

EXAMINATION BY MR. LACKEY.

2 You say those cattle cases--what became of them?

A One was transferred to Karnes County and two more cases are

pending supposed to be on trial in Pearsall.

They were all indicted?

A Yes, sir, they were all indicted.

MR. LACKEY: That's all.

1

CAPTAIN OSCAR THOMPSON,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Knight.

2 Captain, you heard the testimony of Mrs. Yeager about that

water hole over there?

A I didn't hear it; I was not here.

Q Well, anyway, just to save time, just go ahead and tell the

Committee what you were doing over there, why you went to her

house, and the whole transaction, in as brief a compass as you

can.

A There was a dispute over a water right. We had land leased

from Mr. Conover of Houston. I had sold my cattle under a con¬

tract. She claimed the water, and we had agreed to pay her

for her water if she would wait until it was surveyed--we agreed

to pay her thirty dollars a month for five years, but she would

not wait; she shut up the gates around the water. Givens and

Timberlake, the parties I sold it to, enjoined her from shutting

up the gates. Well, we went out there with a surveying outfit

and surveyed the land, and there was very little of the water

hers--part of the well and part of the tank. Her son was with

us when we ran the line, and he told us he thought when his

mother found how the line went she would be willing to treat

with us. He went up there and came back and invited myself

and one of the Rangers up to the house. She said the reason

she wanted to see the Ranger was she wanted to see if he had

horns; that was the remark. We went to the house and I

went in, and she began to curse and abuse us, and there was not

one unkind word said to that lady. The Ranger never went in

the house.

2 All right. Then, who was in that party?--just the three

as State Library and Archives Commission

that you mentioned?

A No, sir; Mr. Timberlake was with us and Mr. George Grover

and the surveyor, Hayes Dix.

2 There were five of you at the house?

A Yes, sir.

2 How many of you were armed?

A Not one.

Q Was the Ranger armed?

A I think he was; I think he had his pistol on then.

2 None of the rest of the party were armed at all?

A No, sir, there wasn't a pistol in the crowd. My Winchester

was in the car, a quarter of a mile from the house.

2 Now, she filed suit to enjoin the parties from using the

water?

A No, sir, they enjoined her.

Q Yes, that's right. Now, she answered and impleaded you?

A Yes, sir.

& You were not a party to the injunction suit at all?

A No, sir.

& She reconvened against you for the use of the land and water

prior thereto and also for fifty thousand dollars for damages?

A Yes, sir.

2 Now, did you abuse that lady?

A No, sir, not a word; I didn't say a word that I would not

have said to my mother.

2 Did you make any sign that you would decapitate her?

A No, sir.

2 Now, that was alleged in that trial?

A Yes, sir.

2 The court rendered judgment for Givens and Timberlake for

one hundred dollars and for you on the slander charge?

A Yes, sir.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

2 When did you become a Captain?

A I am not a Captain.

I thought he called you "Captain"?

A Sort of like they call you "Governor".

MR. CANALES: That's all.

REDIRECT EKAMINATION.

By Mr. Knight.

2 Do you know Captain W. M. Hanson?

A Yes, sir.

2 How long have you known him, Mr. Thompson?

A Oh, I have known him a long time.

2 Have you been thrown in contact with him in the discharge of

his official duties?

A Yes, sir, ever since he came down there.

2 How long had you known him prior to the time he became a

Ranger?

A Well, I knew him when he was working in the Treasury Depart¬

ment.

Q Have you observed his conduct as an official?

A Yes, sir, I have.

2 Give the Committee the benefit of your opinion of him as you

know him.

A I don't think there is a better officer in Texas; he has

always been honorable and upright with us.

He is a man of sterling integrity and unusual intelligence

and devotion to duty?

bhon

A Yes, sir.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

EXAMINATION BY MR. LACKEY.

sae offider of

2 When you went up to the house how many went inside?

A I think only three of us.

2 Who were they?

A Hayes Dix, Mr. Timberlake and myself.

Angunt.

5.

2 Where did the Ranger stay?

A He was on the outside. There was a water bucket outside and

they were out there.

& You say she abused you all?

A Yes, sir, and she abused us at Cotulla at the trial.

MR. LACKEY: That's all.

LON C. HILL,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Knight.

Q State your name to the Stenographer, Mr. Hill.

A Lon C. Hill.

& Where do you live?

A I live at Harlingen, Cameron County, Texas.

& How long have you lived on the frontier?

A You mean in the Cameron country?

Q Yes, sir, in the border country?

A I went down there in 1900--nineteen years ago.

Q Are you reasonably familiar with the conditions down there?

A Yes, sir, I think so.

2 What have been your opportunities for acquiring a familiarity

with the conditions peculiar to that country down there?

A Well, I don't think there is anybody in the country has any

better--that is, on the outside of town. I own quite a lot

of property, a farm and ranch and all those things principally.

2 Now, have you filled any position as peace officer of any

kind recently?

in contemplation?

country aid

A Well, yes.

haut the eountry betwen the e

2 What is it, Mr. Hill?

A I was appointed a Ranger the last week of August, 1915.

Q Special Ranger?

A At the request of Colonel Bullard of the Twenty-fourth Infan¬

try, Major Blocksom and General Hutchings.

Q Yes, sir. Now, there has been considerable annoyance and

anxiety on the part of the cowmen and farmers in that country

growing out of the evaporation of their labor down there, the

exodus of labor to Mexico, hasn't there, in the last three or

four years?

A Yes, sir.

2 Have you had an opportunity to know of the Ranger service as

operated through that country the last four or five years?

A I have ever since I have been there, the last nineteen years.

2 You have heard it testified here that the exodus of labor

down there, the Mexican population, was due to the savagery or

outlawry of the Rangers?

A Not a word of truth in it.

2 What is it due to, Mr. Hill?

A Well, due to a good many conditions.

Q Well, tell the Committee.

A Well, the first exodus they had down there was in August or

the middle of September, 1915.

2 Yes, sir.

A Well, that was on account of that plan at San Diego. Those

Mexicans down there all organized and divided up that whole

country; they were going to take that whole country between

the Nueces and the Rio Grande and going to kill all of us down

there and run us all out of that country.

2 What particular country did they have in contemplation?

A Well, they all talked about the country between the Nueces

and the Rio Grande. They said we had stolen it from them,

our Government had, and had taken the land away from them, and

they had selected who was going to be the Governor of it and the

judges of it and this, that and the other.

& Yes, sir. Now, then, all right. What else affected it-

what about the Selective Draft law?

A Now, the reason they left there then, there wasn't any Rangers

in that country in 1915 until the first week of August; there

wasn't any Ranger there until the day before Austin and his sons

were killed at Sebastian; then Ransom came in there about that

time, and Fox, both. Up to that time they had had two or three

raids. Then they killed Austin and his son, and they had al-

ready burned up two or three railroad bridges and burned up

quite a lot more, and on the following Sunday they had that

raid at Norias. Then they had a lot of depredations around

Mercedes and all through that country, and the Rangers were al¬

ready in that country, and the people that owned that country

and interested in that country, they got hold of a lot of those

fellows and captured them and got all the information they

wanted and found who was in this thing, aiding them and giving

them comfort and helping them out, and they just went after them,

and that's all there was to it. Of course, they got afraid

and went across the river---didn't half go across the river that

ought to have gone, as far as being interested in the raids.

Now, I want to say this: You hear them talk about Mexican

soldiers coming across the river. Ninety-eight per cent of

the people who depredated were Mexicans on this side of the

river, Mexicans raised in that country, living on people's

ranches there.

2 All right. Now, what effect do you think the Rangers had

in inspiring the exodus?

A Didn't have a thing in the world to do with it---didn't have

any more to do with it than the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

2 Now, Colonel Hill, have you had anything to do with the

matter of detecting crime down in that country? I want you

to state---There has been something said here about the activity

of one Pedro Larema and Thomas Tijerina in regard to the appre¬

hension of a man named Chapa and his partner, who were hung at

Brownsville, and also one Flores.

A Well, now, that man Chapa and that other, they were in that

Sebastian raid, is my recollection, and they were arrested by a

man named Keen, who was either one of Mr. Vann's deputies or a

Ranger, out about four or five miles from the river.

2 Yes, sir.

A Now, Flores, he was arrested next day after the train wreck.

2 Yes, sir.

th

A And a man down there who used to be former Tax Collector,

named Tomasso Larema, brought a young Mexican in and an old

Mexican on suspicion---they were arresting everybody on suspicion.

They stayed in jail a couple of days. One day they were brought

before Mr. Vann, and it was either Tomasso or Sanchez Tijerina and

one of the Laremas, those parties stood there and told Vann about

what good people these people were and what a mistake had been

made, and wanted him to turn them loose. Vann said, "All right;

there is nothing against them and they can go along."

2 You were there?

A Yes, sir, I had come in. They were still in there, and Vann

was told not to let those Mexicans go.

MR. LACKEY: What?

A Mr. Vann was told not to let those Mexicans go.

4

id

2 You told him not to let them go?

A Yes, sir. I wanted you to understand that I have learned

some other pronounds besides "I".

Q I understand.

A He was told that this Mexican Flores was in the train robbery

and also in the Sebastian raid. Flores was sitting over there,

and he was told that Flores had a black spot on his neck covered

up by his handkerchief.

Q What was the color of the handkerchief?

A I don't remember.

tun bua

2 Well, go ahead.

A He went over there and untied the handkerchief and said, "You

were in this Sebastian raid and the train wreck; your name is

Flores," and he didn't deny it, and he said yes, it was his

name, but he was not in it. Then Flores was put in jail, and

he then sent for some parties there and said he would turn

State's evidence if they would agree not to punish him, and it

was fixed up in a legal way; the law requires those things and

fellows are to turn State's evidence and tell the truth about

the whole transaction, and Mr. Vann and the District Attorney

reported that he did tell the truth, and I believe he did tell

the truth.

& He was of great service in bringing the criminals to justice?

A Yes, sir, he told all who were in it.

Q Well, now, if you had not appeared, Tijerina and Larema would

have had them discharged as good Mexicans?

A Yes, sir.

an

2 Now, did either Tijerina or Larema have anything to do or

present when Henry Keen arrested those two desperate men who were

hung, Chapa and his partner?

A No, sir, had nothing to do with it.

Q Now, Mr. Hill, there has been a good deal said here in evidence

about the bones of a man by the name of Florencio Garcia that

were found between Point Isabel and Brownsville. Did you see

those bones?

her or not there were agene

A Well, I saw some bones at the court-house and some clothes

that they had brought in there the next day after the Rangers had

given bond.

That you were advised were the bones in question?

A Yes, sir.

2 How long after they were brought in there?

A Well, it must not have been but a day or two, because the

Rangers had just given bond.

& Have you seen bones on the prairie and observed them and in

position to state approximately the time required for bones to

absolutely bleach?

A Oh, yes, any man is familiar with cow bones.

2 What was the condition of those bones with reference to being

devoid of marrow or other evidences of the sustaining of life?

A They were white--what we call bleached bones. I will tell

you, no bone will turn white---when there is flesh on them they

are yellow; they wonkt turn white or yellow until the marrow

is gone. These bones had no tissue or anything at the end of

them.

2 The ligaments had disappeared?

they

A Yes, sir.

Around

In your judgment, how long had those bones been exposed to

the elements?

A Well, I would say a year or a year and a half.

Q Did you see the clothes that were brought in there?

A Yes, sir, I saw them, but didn't examine them.

0 Didn't notiee the clothes?

sti and

s State Library and Archives Commission

A My opinion is that the clothes never came off the man that

had those bones, because they would have been rotted if they

had.

Q Now, I will get you to state whether or not there were agents

in that country actively dispensing German propaganda?

A Yes, sir, not only that, but all over Texas, New Mexico,

Arizona and California.

then they got to

What class of people---was it Mexicans, Texans or Germans or

who that were chiefly interested in that matter?

A The man that furnished them--the most of the printed propa¬

ganda came from a man by the name of Muros in Los Angeles, Cali¬

fornia.

this id

Q Was he a Mexican?

A Yes, sir. Then they had headquarters at Bay City and had

headquarters at San Antonio. Not only that; they used this

printed matter, and they sent men out that went all over the

country and they delivered that stuff to them by hand. Now,

in that country they had men like Ramos Pizana and a man named

Vasquez that lived on the Brown ranch. This man Pizana lived

on my ranch and had lived there for ten years without paying

any rent and had three or four hundred head of cattle. Then

you go on up the river and there was a lot of them in Brownsville,

a man named Dablo, he was interested, and around San Benito

there was a lot of them, but the main man--they had a Jefe or

General in each one of these places. Around San Benito was

a man named Rodriguez; he was a major or colonel in the Mexican

army and recently came over there to take charge of this propa¬

ganda.

Q You know him personally?

A Yes, sir, I know him personally. Then you go further up

the river, they had men in San Antonio and Corpus Christi and

tate Library and Archives Commission

1150

all over the country.

Axing

Q Were those agencies in communication with each other?

ldier

A Yes, sir.

htsen to sixty, going to take

2 Did they have signals?

anke

A I don't know about that. They would do this, Judge---now,

we investigated all those things: They would send money down

there to those people and we could get copies of the money

orders from the Postoffice Department, and then they got to

reading their mail and kept right up with it; they knew who

all was into it.

Q Now, what was the nature of that propaganda--why did that

cause the Mexicans to hie across the river?--what did they think?

A Which? the Mexicans on this side of the river?

2 Yes.

A Well, they just simply saw---they appealed to their patriotism

and their country and told them if they killed all the Americans

and run them out they would have all the land and make a lot of

them generals and judges and governors.

& Was there anything said about the Selective Draft laws?

A Well, we were not in the war then, but they would get papers

published in Mexico favorable to the war in Europe, and one, I

think, said there were about eighty thousand Germans in Texas,

or reservists.

& Or in Mexico?

A Well, either in Texas or Mexico, and they were ready to join

them.

on

That was the occasion of the exodus in 1915 and 19162

A That was the occasion of the exodus in September and October,

1915.

Q Now, what was it in 1916?

A Well, in the Spring---in the Winter of 1916 and 1917 they

thought we were going into the war, and then the same propaganda

ler in

State Library and Archives Commission

told them that they were fixing to put---take all the Mexicans

and make slaves and soldiers out of them and going to take every-

body, I think, from eighteen to sixty, going to take all the

women over there and make nurses out of them and make them cook

and make them Red Cross helpers. As soon as Bernstorff got

his walking papers Mexicans went from this town and from Lockhart

and all over South Texas to Mexico.

2 Now, when was the main exodus?

A That was the main exodus, about that time.

Now, in 1917 and 1918 what was the occasion? was it the

Rangers that caused them to go across, or was it some other

cause?

A No, sir, it was not the Rangers.

2 What about the Selective Draft law?

A When they started legislating on the Selective Draft they

began to go to Mexico, and when they had to register on the 5th

of June, then they went from all over South Texas, and after

that became effective then they kept going to Mexico. That

was in the Spring of 1917.

2 Yes, sir. Now, then, I will get you, Mr. Hill, to state

how long you have known Captain Hanson?

A About twenty-five years, I guess.

& You knew him when he was United States Marshal?

A I knew him before that--knew him when he lived at Rio Grande

City and Laredo before he was Marshal.

0 Have you been thrown in frequent contact with him during the

last quarter of a century?

A Yes, sir.

0 Have you observed his conduct as a man and officer and his

ability?

A Well, I will say this about him: There is not a better

officer in South Texas than Mr. Hanson.

is State Library and Archives Commission

2 Did you ever see him conduct himself towards his fellow men

other than as became a courageous, self-respecting citizen?

on

A No, sir, I never knew him to have any trouble at all.

Q Now, have you observed his conduct since he has been connected

with the Ranger force?

propegandists, gaid he ought not to do

A Yes, sir.

the best thing to do, and dese

2 How has he conducted himself, both as a man and officer, since

he became Captain of the Rangers?

wen he would nat do what

A Strictly to carry out orders.

ona and about other things.

2 Did he do it in a lawful, manly way?

A Yes, sir, so far as my observation goes.

Q Now, I will ask you about Captain Stevens. What do you know

about him and his troubles down there? just tell them in your

own way.

A Well, Captain Stevens was efficient and diligent, unusually

so, more than any Ranger Captain they had for several years up

to that time.

Is Captain Stevens an overbearing, desperate man in his con¬

duct either as an officer or individual?

A To the contrary.

2 Did you ever know of his being guilty of any misconduct either

as an officer or as a man since you have known him?

body

A Not that I know of, no, sir.

Why, going back to that propaganda, I will ask you if there

was circulated amongst the Mexicans by the Carranza Government

down there offering the Mexicans if they would return to Mexico

land and so forth?

A Oh, yes, they offered to give them all the land they wanted,

and they went so far in Matamoras as to issue deeds to the land

patented by the Crown of Spain; they had a regular place where

they executed deeds to them.

State Library and Archives Commission

2 Now, I will ask you if you heard any complaints in all that

country against either Captain Stevens or Captain Hanson prior

to the activity of the Rangers in ferreting out alleged election

frauds in that countyy?

A I have heard some people sort of knocking them a little bit

about arresting German propagandists, said he ought not to do

it or wasn't the best thing to do, and deserters. The hue and

cry started when they had orders from the Attorney General up

here to investigate those frauds, when he would not do what

they wanted him to do about elections and about other things.

Well, what about when he would not obey their order?

A Well, they began villifying and backbiting, just like those

fellows are always doing.

ofit of the

ay for

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

achool

CROSS EAAMINATION.

whon you went there.

By Mr. Canales.

Q You say Flores was arrested by Tijerina and Lerma and brought

to the Sheriff?

A All I know is what was said. He was arrested by Tomasso

Larema, is my understanding.

Don't you know that Tomasso wouldn't arrest anybody---he used

to live in town and was Tax Collector and wouldn't arrest anybody.

Now, Lon, do you remember the time in St. Louis you came out

in a big paper over there that you were a full-blooded Cherokee

and the richest Indian in the world?

A I never came out in the paper. (Laughter)

Well, do you remember that?

7

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That hasn't a thing in the world to do

with it.

MR. CANALES: Yes, it has.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, I will hold it does not, anyway.

MR. CANALES: Well, of course, if you deprive me of the

right to challenge the statement of the witness--I will show

that he made the boast that he was a Cherokee and then in Chicago

said he was a full-blooded Choctaw. (Laughter)

MR. KNIGHT: We have no objection to that.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, I don't think it is admiss¬

ible. I don't think it is material to any issue in this case,

no matter how interesting it might be to know about it.

MR. LACKEY: I don't see the materiality of it, but if

they all want to hear it I am willing to listen to it.

THE WITNESS: It is not my statement.

MR. MOSES: It is Mr. Canales' statement.

THE WITNESS: I want to say for the benefit of the Committee

that I learned some other pronouns besides "I" when I went to

school.

MR. CANALES: Well, you forgot them when you went there.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, I don't think it is admissible.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Moses.

Is John A. Hill your son?

chinx Lt is a proper inquiry.

A Yes, sir.

& The statement was made by Mr. Canales yesterday that he was

a Special Ranger, that he was a cattleman and owned no cattle.

Itä, to

What business is he in?

A He is in the cattle business.

How close to Brownsville does he live?

A He lives at Harlingen.

other?

0 How close is that?

A Twenty-five miles.

How long has he lived down there on the arroyo?

A He went down there with me in 1900.

2 He has been in the cattle business how long?

A Oh, he has been in the stock business for the last six or

seven or eight years.

Q I believe, if my recollection is not at fault, there was some

statement that you own no cattle?

A I have some few head. John is the cow man; he has about

seven or eight hundred head; last year he had about four thou¬

sand head.

2 In about four miles of Mr. Canales' land?

A Yes, sir, adjoining his land--running a lot of cattle on his

land.

arl

MR. MOSES: That's all.

o2 Jail ah

De pou know

RECROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

thay dd

2 How many do you render?

plations preseribaa

A Not talking about rendering.

0y

Q Now, Lon, isn't it a fact that you have never rendered a

single head of cattle in Brownsville for the last five years and

your son never has rendered any?

A If the Committee thinks that is relevant testimony--

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I think it is a proper inquiry.

A Render cattle for taxes?

Q Yes.

yford.

A I will answer that I don't know. I don't think I did, to

tell you the truth.

0 Lon, isn't it a fact that your son was simply talking of

cattle that he was in charge of and didn't belong to him, but

belonged to his uncle or brother?

A He had down there about eight or nine hundred head of cattle

that he owned a half interest in with Sam, my brother; the

balance belonged to him.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

EXAMINATION BY MR. TIDWEIT.

2 Mr. Hill, I want to inquire--there was a man taken from jail

at Harlingen and hanged.

A What was his name?

I don't remember. Who was the man that testified?

MR. CANALES: Navaez.

A I never heard of it.

Q Did you ever hear of that circumstance?

our organisation and

ANo, sir.

MR. CANALES: He don't live in Harlingen.

They said he was taken out of jail and hanged by some Rangers.

Do you know about it?

A No, sir. If the Rangers did it---I don't believe they did

it, because there are certain rules and regulations prescribed,

that is not the Rangers' business--there are other people to do

thatyould go inte it and you would have packad

1 raga,

Now, do you live in Harlingen?

A Yes, sir, about a mile from it.

2 Now, do you know about the City Marshal there?

A You are talking about Isabel Cantu.

I don't remember his name.

MR. MOSES: The Deputy Marshal lived at Lyford.

MR. TIDWELL: Well, that's all.

A Well, I never heard anything of the Rangers' hanging anybody.

RECROSS EXAMINATION.

a Wall, they didn't de

now on acogunt of

By Mr. Canales.

the ragulations?

2 Lon, about 2500 people live in Harlingen?

object to hanging

A Well, somewhere around a couple of thousand.

Q Possibly out of twenty-five hundred about twenty-four hundred

and fifty didn't know anything about this incident?

A Well, I don't know about that; I don't know what publicity

was given; they usually don't give publicity to those things.

EXAMINATION BY CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE.

Q Mr. Hill, you made the statement that there were certain

regulations observed in reference to those matters and you didn't

believe the Rangers did it.

s

A What I mean by that is this: When those Mexicans organized

themselves to run us people out of there and kill us--and they

did kill a terrible lot, including soldiers--of course, we shaped

up our organization, too, and we shaped up our organization and

we knew who we could call on this place and that and the other

place, and there were certain fellows that looked after those

things.

Q In other words, anything an officer could not do he passed it

to the other fellows and they attended to it?

A Well, I am just simply telling you about the organization.

You would go into it and you would have packed your doll rags,

called the dogs, and done what we did.

2 Some things were done in order not to involve the Rangers

officially?

A No, I never heard of that before.

Well, you say that was not part of their business?

A I never heard anything that the Rangers--

2 Well, I mean what you meant by that remark?

A Well, I never heard anything of the Rangers' hanging anybody.

2 Well, they didn't do it as you said just now on account of

the regulations?

A No, sir. A lot of those citizens wouldn't object to hanging

a fellow to make him tell what he knows.

2 You don't think a Ranger would do that?

onditions on

A Yes, they are no better than anybody else.

Q Well, you think if they had a fellow out in the dark at night

they would give him the third degree?

don

hing about

A Well, I don't know; probably they might.

EXAMINATION BY MR. MeMILLIN.

Wall, you would absolutely destroy his effieieney. Nobody

Q Did some of the Mexicans leave a good deal of property there?

I believe you said one of your tenants left several hundred head?

A Yes, sir; that fellow Aninceto had three or four hundred head.

& What became of them?

A His friends took them and sold them and sent the money to him

in Mexico.

2 Did they bring what you would call a full price?

A I don't know anything about the prices.

EXAMINATION BY MR. LACKEY.

2 There has been some testimony about four men having been

taken out of jail at Harlingen and executed or shot. Do you

know anything about that?

A At Harlingen?

MR. CANALES: No, that was at San Benito.

A I know two or three fellows that killed some soldiers at the

Galveston ranch and they were taken out by some citizens and

shot; that was at San Benito. The Rangers had nothing to do

with it; there were no Rangers there.

ing Ran

bond; that

EXAMINATION BY SENATOR WILLIFORD.

hamnt got l

Q Mr. Hill, do you think the Ranger service could be improved

any?

ociation

A Well, yes, sir, in a marked degree, by paying them better

wages. I don't know that you could improve the efficiency of the service, because on account of the peculiar conditions on

the border you've got to get men acquainted with the people and

the country. What business has a fellow from the piney woods

of East Texas down in that brush? He don't know anything about

faot

tizens

tan 6

it.

w-abiding.

the

une

2 What do you think about requiring bonds like a Sheriff gives?

A Well, you would absolutely destroy his efficiency. Nobody

would go on his bond. If he didn't come around and ask a

fellow a question and have a smile on his face like a Thanksgiving

proclamation they would all swear a plenty and have a lot of law

suits on bonds. They would be afraid to do anything. It

would absolutely destroy their efficiency. Another thing: I

er

have been on the frontier all my life, and those fellows down

there in that country are just about as hard a set of men as I

ever saw. They are not afraid of anybody or any set of men.

Ro

EXAMINATION BY MR. TIDWELL.

Q You mean the Rangers?

A No, I mean the bandits down there. No, they are not afraid

of them.

his bod

und

2 What about the citkzens?

ried soldiers.

A Afraid of Rangers? No. Why should they be?

dem.

Q No, I mean afraid of bandits?

A No, I don't know that they are particularly afraid of them,

but they dread them like everything. Those fellows are sure

hard eitizens. Now, you talk about putting Rangers under

bond; that would absolutely destroy his efficiency. If he

hasn't got a lot of latitude and he goes up there and meets one

of those bandits and you want to facilitate it, if you had a

clause requiring Rangers to join a memorial association so he

could be buried cheaply, you ought to do that. (Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: You think he would be a fit applicant

for membership in a coffin association?

A Yes, sir, and right now; there ain't any foolishness--you

tell one to "Halt!" and it's right now.

2 Isn't it a fact that you have many Mexican citizens that are

as law-abiding as the Americans?

A Yes, sir, we have some Mexicans that are reasonably law-abiding.

Aren't they as afraid of the banditti as the Americans?

A Yes, sir; you know nobody can be as mean to any of their own

race as one Mexican to another. They come across and kill

Mexicans because they have an idea they have given out some in¬

formation about the banditti.

and in

2 Do you remember the eircumstance when a Mexican ranchman over

on the Rio Grande above Brownsville was carried by bandits on

the other side, possibly a year or two years back, and brought

back and his body was found in the middle of the Rio Grande

river?

A Yes, sir.

2 What was his name?

A Verga, or something like that.

go and

They found his body in the river?

A Yes, sir. That's nothing. Those fellows carried soldiers,

Lieve

Americans, carried them over there and executed them.

MR. KNIGHT: Clemente Barrios was the name.

Mezioan cowboys?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

A Jose Maris Salins

By Mr. Knight.

Do you remember tha

2 Mr. Hill, what is the habit of the criminals among the

Mexicans to tell a cock-and-bull story about mistreatment?

A Oh, that's the first thing; that is stereotype with them.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

161

C Well, you were not HhErN RtYthaß Dines, Were you acquainted

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

A Yas, sir.

By Mr. Knight.

Q Mr. Edds, where do you live?

A Hebbronville, Jim Hogg County.

Hebbronville, in Jim Hogg County. How long have you resided

there, Mr. Edds?

ve have.

A I have been in that country about twenty-two years.

2 Where were you---what part of the State were you raised in?

A I was raised in Wilson County.

-sincs he was a

0 You have been down in this southern country all your life?

A Yes, sir, all my life.

Q Are you acquainted with Ranger Johnny Edds?

A Yes, sir; he is a cousin of mine.

What is your business?

A Stock business.

0 Your ranch is in Jim Hogg County?

A I control four ranches, in Jim Hogg, Starr, Hidalgo and

Zapata Counties.

Q Now, do you remember the circumstance, Mr. Edds, of--I believe

his name is Salinas--a Mexican who had been apprehended by two

Mexican cowboys?

A Jose Maria Salinas Gomez.

Q Do you remember that circumstance?

A Wesl, sir.ill put it thia way: The faots are these: that

0 Just tell the Committee all you know about it.

A Well, I was not at home when that occurred; I was in Karnes

Gountyer and toled te get Sif and pat ekenssd to daltver the

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: You don't talk loud enough.

A I was not in Hebbronville when that occurred; I was in

Karnes County.

and in that

ne he sould not

2 Well, you were not there at that time. Were you acquainted

with the ranch on which those two Mexicans worked that had that

prisoner in charge?

nto deliver the

AYes, sir.

re salestad. Now,

2 The man was a Mexican, was he not?

AYes, sir.

Q Izaguirre is a good man, is he not?

A Yes, sir, one of the best Mexicans we have.

Q Now, how long had you known Izaguirre?

A About twenty years--since he was a boy.

Q Now, how long have you known Johnny Edds--since he was a

child?

AYes, sir.

and a man.

2 What is his reputation in that country as an officer of the

law, as to whether or not he is quiet, fearless, firm, and

non-overbearing?

A It is reported to me that he is a good officer; that is his

standing.

Q Isn't that the uniform opinion of that boy in that country,

that he is a good, efficient officer?

A Among the law-abiding citizens, yes, sir.

Q Do you believe that Izaguirre would have turned that Mexican

prisoner over to two of his cowboys if he did not think they

were reliable and would have delivered him to the officers?

MR. CANALES: That is immaterial and irrelevant.

2 Well, I will put it this way: The facts are these: that

John Edds was attending court in another county and was notified

that those cowboys had arrested the Mexican. He reported to

the court and tried to get off and get excused to deliver the

prisoner at Hebbronville. He was told by the District Court

or District Attorney that he could not be away longer than

one o'clock next day, and in that time he could not have

delivered his prisoner at Hebbronville and got back to court.

Arriving at the ranch, he consulted with the owner of the ranch

and asked him to designate two reliable men to deliver the

prisoner at Hebbronville, and these two men were selected. Now,

considering the reputation of Mr. Izaguirre, and considering the

fact that Johnny Edds knew of the law-abiding disposition of

Mr. Izaguirre, do you think there was any indiscretion or bad

judgment exercised by the boy in letting those two men take the

prisoner?

MR. CANALES: I object to that as absolutely immaterial

and irrelevant.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I think it is going too far.

You can

prove his general reputation as an officer and a man.

MR. KNIGHT: All right.

a

2 Now, Mr. Edds, I will ask you if you know Captain Hanson here?

A Yes, sir.

2 How long have you known him?

A Twenty-five or thirty years.

Q You have known him as a citizen and officer of the law?

A Yes, sir.

nnr

Q You have had frequent occasion to observe his conduct as a

citizen and officer for many years?

A Yes, sir.

2 What is it--good or bad?

Now, do you ow

A Good.

way of shootin

2 Have you ever known Captain Hanson to be guilty of any mis¬

conduct, either as an individual or officer, that did not become

a fearless officer and a faithful one?

t

A I have not.

2 That's all---no, there is another matter I want to ask you.

You are familiar with the conditions down there on the border?

A Yes, sir.

2 You know the services that the Rangers have rendered and that

the soldiers have rendered. Now, I will ask you to state whether

or not in your opinion the Ranger service would be crippled to a

degree that would render it practically impotent if they were

inder

placed under bond?

A Yes, sir; I think, as stated here before by many witnesses,

it would destroy their efficiency.

2 What, in your opinion---I will ask you to state if from your

own personal knowledge---you have come in frequent contact with

the Rangers down there, have you not?

aw recently enagted

A Yes, sir.

a

Q I will ask you to state whether or not---I don't know, I

haven't talked with you---you have seen any of the Rangers mis-

behaving in the matter of drinking, carousing and conducting

themselves in an overbearing manner towards citizens?

h

A I have seen Rangers drinking, yes, sir.

Q In latter years?

A I don't believe I recall any recently. I have seen Rangers

go so far as to get drunk.

That was in old times--there's no whiskey in that country now?

he resous

50.6

A Yes, plenty of it. (Laughter)

a7

2 Well, I mean sold publicly?

A No, sir.

2 That's what I thought. Now, do you know of your own knowledge

of any outrages they committed in the way of shooting prisoners

and imposing on citizens?

A No, sir, all that occurred lower down in the Valley.

2 Now, do you think the Ranger service might possibly be graded

up some and improved?

A I think it might be improved.

& Well, in what particulars, Mr. Edds?---tell the Committee

your view of that. Do you think increasing wages would help?

is unde

A Yes, sir, increasing wages would help; they would have more

to work for.

2 Do you think greater power given the Adjutant General and his

Captains in selecting their men and placing them under military

discipline would improve it?

A Ithink so.

2 That would purge it of characters that might otherwise have

gotten in?hbeenudereinhese allegatiens and

AtYes, sirsef o bsing and sondneting

Q Now, there have been under a law recently enacted a great many

Special Rangers appointed. I will ask you whether or not that

law has operated to the good of the country down there?

A Yes, sir, it has in our locality.

Q Have you ever known of any discrimination shown by the Adju¬

tant General's office or by the officers and men in the field in

performing their duty with reference to the different eitizens

down there?

recessed

A Not in any case. untilSP.M.

2 Do you know of their having refused, either the Adjutant

General's office or the Captains or the men, to go to the rescue

of any citizen who called upon them?

A No, sir.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

ving been du

rn testified as follows:-

CROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

2 Mr. Edds, you've got a good Sheriff there?

A Yes, sir.

2 He is a fearless man?

ou live?

A Yes, sir.

2 He executes the laws?

146

A Yes, sir.

Q He is under bond?

A Yes, sir.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

Willaey Counties.

A In Duval, Jim Well

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

d How long have you been in

on o the country where

By Mr. Knight.

you how raside?

Q What is the name of that man?

A Pat Craighead.

Q Pat Craighead has been accused here in these allegations and

attempted proof of being a man capable of abusing and conducting

himself unbecoming a gentleman in the presence of a lady. Is

he that kind of man?

le

A He is absolutely a gentleman under all conditions.

2 A fearless, red-blooded, fearless American citizen?

County.

A Yes, sir.

kno

MR. KNICHT: That's all.

At 5.15 P. M. the Committee recessed

aot

until 7.15 P. M.

The Committee reconvened at 7.25 P. M.

CLAUDE MCGILL,

A Yes, eir

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

H

d State whether

DIRECT EXAMIIATION.

AI was.

By Mr. Moses.

V, just deseribe

the raider

2 Your name is Claude MeGill?

was done with regard to it.

tel

AIt is. long sry. I will just getat the

Q Where do you live?

A I live at Alice.

uer them On this day durin

as State Library and Archives Commission

ess carried me from Alice

2 In what business are you engaged?

h.

A Live stock business.

2 Where are your live stock interests?

eut te

A In Duval, Jim Wells, Nueces and Willacy Counties.

2 How long have you been in that section of the country where

thirty

to the San intenio

you now reside?

mpany with me from Alice to Hebbronville

A Since 1904.

another gentle¬

Do you know . T. East?

He wers driyen by & Mexican boy.

AI do.

Where is his ranch situated--his headquarters ranch?

A The San Antonio Viejo ranch is situated about thirty-five

after dark;

miles South or South-west of Hebbronville.

In Jim Hogg County?

A In Jim Hogg County.

Do you or not know Mr. East and his family well?

to thå ranch turned ny a lane geing West

AIdo.

2 There has been some testimony with regard to a raid that was

made on the East ranch. Do you know when that raid occurred?

ia hed to go we want straight up almost against the barn and

The date, I mean.

A No, sir; I know the month; it was in March of 1918; I don't

ts fired, I don't know how many; they

remember the date.

2 March, 19182

A Yes ir

State whether or not you were there at that time?

AIwas.

tho turn to go in the

2 Now, just describe that raid and who the raiders were and

tell what was done with regard to it.

A Well, it's a good long story. I will just get at the details

and give you the facts about it, and if you want to ask me any

questions about it I will answer them. On this day during

March, I don't remember the date, business carried me from Alice

to the San Antonio Viejo ranch.

e time, and then

or ti

MR. KNIGHT: That's the East ranch?

dn't taka me

A Yes, sir, that's the East ranch. I left Alice about two

o'clock in the evening and went to Hebbronville, which is about

sixty miles, and about thirty miles on down to the San Antonio

Viejo ranch. In company with me from Alice to Hebbronville

was Mr. Oscar Thompson, in whose car I went, and another gentle¬

man by the name of Franklin. We were driven by a Mexican boy.

When we got to Hebbronville Mr. Thompson didn't go any further

with us and I went on down with Mr. Franklin, driven by the

Mexican boy. We arrived at the ranch a little after dark; in

fact, it was good dark when we arrived there.

2 Pardon me. Was Mr. East there, Tom East, at that time?

A No, sir, he was not. We were going South down a main road

and we had in going up to the ranch turned up a lane going West

which was about a quarter of a mile long, and across the end of

this lane, or this lane ended, why, a big barn and pens, and the

way we had to go we went straight up almost against the barn and

turned directly to the left and it went into a gate or driveway

and yard there. When we had gotten about half way up this

lane we began to hear shots fired, I don't know how many; they

were pretty fast; I didn't pay much attention to them; it

sounded like an automatic or a couple of them; I didn't pay

very much attention to it. It is very heavy sand there and

the car was going slow. When we made the turn to go in the

gate on the left of course the light changed and on the inside

of this yard I speak of I saw a lot of horses, it was just a

glimpse but I could see horses and also see men with guns, and

the car was going--had made the turn and was going very slow,

I don't know what speed. I don't know what they did to the

boy, I was sitting on the back seat, but the next thing I knew

something hit me under the chin. I could skylight a figure

or figures, I didn't see more than one at the time, and then

I felt rather knocks in the breast; it didn't take me long to

diseover I saw Winchesters. They addressed me in Mexican and

says, "If you've got a gun I'll kill you." I made no answer

to that, and he says again very hurriedly and seemed very much

excited, "If you have a gun I'll kill you." I says in English

then, "What do you want?" He says to me in Spanish, "Get out

of the car" and caught me by the shoulder and gave me a pretty

good yank and I stepped out, and they searched me.

2 You say "they". How many were there then?

A Well, I could not say only up to that time two or three or

four or something like that; I could not see--it was dark.

About that time they brought a lantern from somewhere and then

a man--he had been questioning me in Mexican. I don't speak-¬

I speak a little Mexican, not very much, but I understand it

pretty well; I understood what was said. However, up to

that time I had not answered him only in English, and one of

them came up and caught me by the coat and says to me as if he

wanted to act as an interpreter: "He say he want horses, he

want guns, and he want money." Well, by that time I had kind

of come to (Laughter) and I said, "Oh, is that all he wants?

that's nothing." Then he says---about that time they brought

a lantern and then I could begin to see figures everywhere-

not everywhere, I could see figures, and I also observed white

men that I knew that they had with them. I says, "What is

the matter?" He says, "They are holding up the ranch."

ng-

2 Who was this white man?

A Young Franklin, nephew of the gentleman I was with. It

afterwards developed, and I thought so at the time, that it was

a captain that had me, and he told me in Mexican to go to the

store. It had already occurred to me that "I won't try what

Mexican I can talk, I won't try it." I understood what he

said, and I didn't move; then he says "Pickilly! Pickilly!"

which means NGo".

MR. KNIGHT: What does that mean?

A Well, he punched me a couple of times in the back and I knew

what it meant. (Laughter) So after that I obeyed his orders

implicitly. They took us to the store.

2 Now, that was the store there on the ranch?

A That was the store on the ranch. I would have to draw you

a diagram for you to understand it, and I expect I had better

tell you the location of these other buildings before we go any

further. From where we were it was about fifty yards to Mr.

Franklin's house, the foreman's house; I judge about a hundred

or a hundred and fifty feet on a direct line still going South

was the store; then about two hundred feet on in the same

direction was the main ranch house or the East home. So we

got in the store; this Franklin boy went ahead and unlocked it

and we got in the store and they had the lantern and they got

some sacks from somewhere and put the goods in the sacks, and

while we were in there the ladies came in; the two Mrs. Frank¬

lins I had not met. They seemed very much excited, the older

lady had been crying, and her brother-in-law introdueed me to

them. I got up and spoke to them and told them not to be

afraid, that we would get out all right. So after they sacked

the store they took us back under guard, back North then to this

foreman's place. The house is built, the main part of the

house is separate from the kitehen and dining-room, separated

by a little walkway or platform or little gallery. They set

us down and set the lantern on the floor and two on each side

of us guarded us. They took young Franklin and went to the

barn to hunt saddles and whatever they could find they needed,

and when they came back he said, "They want to go to Hebbronville

and want to take me with them." His mother began to cry and

asked him "Why?" and he said they wanted him to show them the

man who had the keys to the bank. They took our car and a

Mexican's car that had come in behind us---I missed telling

that; we missed a Mexican in going down there in a Ford car,

and we went around him; this Mexican I understood had gone

through the morning before in going to Hebbronville and was

coming back and they held him up there. They used his car

with him for a driver and they took our car with Thompson's

boy for a driver and left for Hebbronville, leaving some guards

with us, five that I saw, and it was about eleven o'clock when

they left and they returned about three. When they returned

they stirred about some and the captain and another one came

up to where we were, and cutting out a lot of stuff that don't

amount to anything this is about what he said in Mexican: He

said, "I am going to leave," and he says, "If you all don't at¬

tempt to get away from here you won't be molested; if you do,

you will be killed." He says, "Now, the treatment that we

have accorded you comes from the fact that you have treated us

right," and he told us good bye and left.

Q During that time did you see Mr. East or Mrs. East?

A Well, let's see. When they took the ranch was just about

sundown, and there was three of those Franklins working for him;

there was this man I went down there with was bossing for him

on the Wells ranch, and then the old man Franklin and his wife,

one of the ladies I speak of, and the young man and his wife

were there when they took the ranch; those were the only ones

there, and when we came they took us. They robbed the store

and brought us back there, and I don't know how long after

that it was---they were not in the store long, but Mrs. East and

the driver came up. She at the time was very much excited. I

got up and spoke to her and sat her down beside me and told her

not to have any fear, that we would get by all right, and I had

recognized the fact that they could talk English and we could

not converse much; they were pretty close to us and I never got

a chance for some time to ask her where her husband, Tom, was.

Now, where they had been working they had a camp, about four

miles from there, and East and his wife and the driver had

started to the ranch; they came a different direction from

where I came and it was necessary for them to go through the

corral and barn, which has stalls on each side, and they came

through there and he was out opening the gates, as he told me

afterwards, so the car could follow him. When he slid back

the big door their horses and some of them were right in the

light and he dodged back through and passed the car and told

his wife something as he did so, but she didn't understand it,

and when she came to me I asked her when I got a chance, "Where

is Tom?" She says, "Unless he is in the barn, they've got him."

0 Did you talk with the driver that took them over towards

1.

Hebbronville?

hsbo

Yes, after he came back?

A Only in a general way; there was several talking to him.

2 I don't mean you asked him questions, but were you present-

do you know why they didn't go on to Hebbronville--did you learn

why the bandits did not go on to Hebbronville?

A Well, I remember this, that that night when he came back or

after they left there was considerable excitement; we were

straightening around, and the fact of the business is, over in

this main house were guns; they hadn't been in there.

Q That was the ranch house?

A Yes, sir. Immediately after they left the people began to

be moving around, and we agreed we had better be quiet a while,

and we stayed there for about ten minutes; we didn't know

whether they were gone or not. There was a telephone there,

and we had tried it during the night and thought it was cut,

and we thought the cars were out of commission and wouldn't

run. This man Franklin that came down with me says, "I am

going to town for help." His sister-in-law fell on his neck

and implored him not to go; she said, "They will kill you."

He said, "I am going anyhow." About that time I said, "I

think the first thing to do is to see if they got in the house;

if they didn't, those guns are there," and we went over there-

Mrs. East, Franklin and myself--and found they had not been

through that house.

r

0 Now, was that while the party had gone towards Hebbronville?

A No, sir, hadn't gone yet. We found the guns all right; I

don't remember what number they were--either four or six. We

came back with the guns and I told this driver, I says, "You

can go out now and try the cars; we can protect you," and he

went out there and the car immediately started. Then it was

agreed---there was a gate we had come through in coming down

there, and we felt sure that was being guarded or waylaid, and

we agreed finally to let this boy of Thompson's go and I would

write a note and let him take it, and felt sure that they would

not kill him, and if he didn't get there we were not out any¬

thing; but while I was gone in the house to write the note

this driver of East's got in the car and said he would run by;

he said, "They can't hit me running, and that's a little plank

gate--I'll run over it." So he went to Hebbronville. Then

we got the guns and got out there in the opening to guard the

place. In the meantime Mr. East had gone to his camp, which

was four miles away, and gotten up the cow crowd, which was

composed of Mexicans, and sent one of them to Hebbronville.

Now, what had become of the robbers?

e

A They had gone on.

y1 I diant soe

Q Gone towards Hebbronville?

A No, sir, they left and went back West towards Zapata County.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: This was after they had returned from

Hebbronville?

A Yes, sir, and after they had left the place.

& You misunderstood the question. I was asking if the bandits

ascertained from the driver that there were Rangers in Hebbron¬

ville and turned back?

A Well, I don't remember; I was showing you what excitement

was going on, and never questioned him, but this Mexican that

East had sent--he sent him to the Wilbur Allen ranch, where

there was a 'phone, and he was smart enough to know after he

got on the road that the central at Hebbronville was not open

at night, so he went on to Hebbronville and I think beat this

driver there, so I guess it was about four o'clock when the

'phone rang---well, I think it was about four o'clock that the

phone rang and it was Mrs. Edds, Mr. Henry Edds' wife, telling

us that they had gotten word and that the Rangers and a posse

were coming.

2 How many Rangers were at Hebbronville?

A I could not tell you; I don't know.

2 Well, were there several?

t

A Yes, sir, there were several.

d Now, what property did they take away from the ranch?

A Well, it was a store that had a pretty fair stock of just

ranch supplies--had groceries, saddle blankets---some of the

things I remember they took was saddle blankets, leggings,

positivaly thers were that m

bridles, shoes, shirts, pants---

ing the Captain. What do

Q Merchandise out of the store?

A Merchandise out of the store.

2 Did they take any horses or saddles?

A Well, what horses they took is only hearsay; I didn't see

them take any horses.

lty:

Well, you were there?

tn he stora one of them apoka pratty

A Yes, sir.

he did.

Q You learned afterwards they did take some horses?

47

A Yes, sir.

Q How many horses did they take?

A Well, my recollection is they only got two horses. I will

state I passed it over, after Mrs. East came in then this old

man Franklin, who had been at the cow camp, came and when he

drove into the lot he said he went into the stall to see if a

night horse had been kept up and not finding any he left his

horse standing and came up to hunt the Mexicans that attended

to that and walked on by and two of them hollered at him and he

kind of bawled them out for not having a horse, and he said, "I

left my horse in the pen; you are going to have to keep him up,"

so they went---I don't know whether they unsaddled him or not.

What did they force the women to do?

A They didn't force the women to do anything.

Well, did the women cook supper for them?

A Well, we went over to the house---along in the night we asked

these fellows, somebody asked them if we couldn't make some

coffee; they said "Yes" and we went over to the house with them

buntion,

and made the eoffee or warmed it over and gave them some.

2 Now, about how many were there of the bandits?

A Well, I will positively say there were thirteen of them; eight

went off in that car and five stayed there; I don't know how

many more there were; I know positively there were that many.

158

2 You spoke of one of them as being the Captain. What do

you mean by that?

A Well, he was the commander or capitan.

Q Do you mean Captain in the Mexican Army, or just in charge of

that bunch?

A No, just in charge of that bunch. I know he had authority;

during the time we were in the store one of them spoke pretty

impudent to me and he told him to shut his mouth, which he did.

& The commander did?

10

(Langh

A Yes, sir.

2 Now, they left there about what time--the bandits?

A Right about three o'clock.

Ho County and tho Rio

What time did the posse get there?

A I don't know what time it was; it was just a little after

daylight.

2 Who was in that posse that you knew?

A Henry Edds, Oscar Thompson, John Draper and Pat Craighead;

I believe Pat came later.

2 John Draper--do you know whether he was a Special Ranger or

not?

A No, sir, I don't; he was in the employ of the Cattle Raisers"

Association.

2 J. C. Draper?

A Yes, sir.

Q Pat Craighead is the Sheriff?

A Yes, sir, and then Captain Wright and some of his men.

2 Did this posse after they arrived and found out the situation,

did they or not follow the bandits?

A They did.

ranch to the Hio

ande

Q Did you accompany the posse or not?

A No, sir---I had all their society I wanted. (Laughter)

2 Did you know or did you ascertain who any of those men were?

were they all Mezicans--the bandits?

A All that I saw were Mexicans.

Did you know any of those men?

A Not personally, I would not say that I knew any of them;

this Captain, I think I have seen him; I would not pretend to

say that I know him.

aa to

The facts are that you folks did everything the bandits told

you to?

and Jim Hogg and thou

mien South

A Absolutely everything. (Laughter)

The men and women that were there?

A Yes, sir.

1

ink it was in 1915 and 1916-

2 Now, what county lies between Jim Hogg County and the Rio

Grande river?

A Jim Hogg County and the Rio Grande?

2 Yes.

A Well, you mean in reference to the way they went? Well,

there is Zapata and Starr, would be the two counties in the

direction they went.

thoir

2 Now, what portion of Jim Hogg County was this ranch--this Tom

East ranch?

ndition o tho farmers--did ther

A Well, I don't know just where the line is. I would say it

would be in the southern portion.

2 Starr County lies directly to the South?

A Yes, sir.

v

ing that yeex we never

QAnd Zapata to the South-west?

A Yes, sir.

liks that.

2 Those counties border on the Rio Grande?

A Yes, sir.

2 And about how far from the East ranch to the Rio Grande river?

A Well, I don't know that I could say exactly.

0 Well, approximately?here had baen a

y disastrous drouth?

A My idea is about forty-five miles.

2 Now, you know by hearsay that the posse followed and killed a

number of the bandits?

A I never heard that they killed byt one.

2 All that is just what you heard?

4 Yesilsirek you if that contributed ey had anything to do with

0 Now, what was the condition of that country down there as to

drouth during the years--during the winter of 1915 and 1916,

the counties of Jim Wells and Jim Hogg and those counties South

or toward the Rio Grande river? was there or not a most disas¬

trous and severe drouth?

A Well, now, letme see; Ithink it was in 1915 and 1916--yes,

I think we had a very severe drouth; as I remember, there were

sixteen counties in it.

ling conditions

0 Well, those counties I refer to, were they in it?

A Yes, sir.

as I the

And what was the condition as to whether there were any crops

made or any grass crops to amount to anything?

A Well, that whole country was very dry; everybody moved their

cattle out.

0 What was the condition of the farmers--did they make any crop

there that year?hose unie en South to the

A No, sir.

0 I will ask you what was the condition--

A Well, now, wait. Ibelieve it was during that year we never

had rain before---I think it was about that time we had a terrific

storm and rain away long in July, something like that.

2 That was 1916, wasn't it?

tha Ranger forcea

AnWes. been statloned

Away up in the summer?

A Yes.

State

179

Prior to that time there had been a very disastrous drouth?

A Yes, sir.

0 And you take the laboring people, like Mexicans, working for

wages, dependent on crops, did they or not have anything to live

on, the great majority of them?

A No, Sir

I will ask you if that contributed or had anything to do with

the exodus of the Mexicans from that country during that time?

A Well, I don't know whether it did or not. At that time

there were caravans of Mexicans passing through the country

and more than one lot of them I asked why they were leaving

the country told me on account of the drouth and that they

could get provisions in Mexico.

2 Now, are you acquainted with the stock interests at least in

the counties of Starr, Hidalgo and Cameron--ranching conditions

down there?

ation of the

A Well, I am not as familiar with those counties as I am the

counties farther up; the chain of counties immediately bordering

the river, I don't do much business in those counties.

The population, is it or not very largely Mexican in all of

those counties?

A Yes, sir, a good many Mexicans.

2 Up as far as Duval and from those counties on South to the

river?

ars is

A Yes, sir.

Q And you have lived in that country since 1904. Where did

you live prior to that time?

A I lived in Flatonia, Texas, Fayette County.

0 Mr. MeGill, you have known, have you not, the Ranger forces

that have been stationed down there in that country, different

portions of it, since you moved there in 1904?

1180

A Well, I will state that my knowledge--all my knowledge of

for

the Ranger companies is mostly Captain Sanders' and Captain

do

Wright's companies.

If ever so

2 Captain Sanders and Captain Wright?

low was in a county sut-

A Yes, sir.

n

he had given his bond, where he was not surreunded

2 You have known of the Rangers, though, more or less since you

have been down in that part of the country?

A Yes, sir.

ard to the

Q Know of their work?

ssions--Special Ranger commissions. Your

A Yes, sir.

Are you à Sy

2 You are more or less familiar with conditions in the counties

South of you?

k you if you know of any

ou if it is

A Yes, sir..

there are quite à good many

hmn, espsially

Q As well as those counties in which your ranching interests

are. I believe it is admitted by everybody that there is a

necessity for a continuation of the Ranger force. I will ask

you what in your judgment would be the effect upon the efficiency

of the Ranger force if the provision of Mr. Canales' bill known

as the bond feature was engrafted on our law?

A Well, I think it would cripple the efficiency of the Ranger

force. I don't believe-

on who was denied

af

7

2 Well, now, why? state your reasons.

A Well, I can give you a dozen reasons why. I don't believe

they could give it; I don't believe there is any man that would

go on a Ranger's bond, and I will say very freely I would not.

It is very different from a local officer's bond, from the fact

that your local officer's bond you've got there in the county

and you have him to deal with. These Rangers are moved

everywhere, and I don't believe a bonding company would go on

it. I believe it would cripple their efficiency from the

fact that they have to make a good many arrests on suspicion,

1181

as far as that is concerned, where they haven't time to wait for

a warrant--if they do they wouldn't get the man, and if they

should make a mistake, if ever so honest, they would be up

against a damage suit, and if that fellow was in a county out¬

side of which he had given his bond, where he was not surrounded

by his friends, and if local conditions went against him, he

would be up against it, I think.

you

2 Mr. MeGill, there has been some suggestion with regard to the

issuance of Ranger commissions--Special Ranger commissions. Your

name was called. Are you a Special Ranger?

ANo, sir.

an population in that

Q I will ask you if you know of any---I will ask you if it is

not true that there are quite a good many ranchmen, especially

those who live West of you and South of you, who do not have

Special Ranger commissions?

A Who do not have?

2 If it is not true that they do have?

A Yes, sir.

le who had been

QI will ask you if you know of any man, any substantial eitizen

of that country of good character, who has ever applied for a

Special Ranger commission who was denied that privilege?

ANo, sir, I don"t.

2 Do you believe that the granting of those Special Ranger

commissions to those men who own land and cattle in that country

is a wise or unwise exercise of authority on the part of the

Adjutant General?

A I think it is wise.

MR. CANALES: Mr. Chairman, I have no objection, but it is

immaterial and irrelevant.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I think it is very important.

MR. CANALES: All right.

1182

State Libra

y and Archives Commission

A I think it very wise. I will point you to the fact that

most of the citizenship there that morning at the time of that

trouble were Special Rangers. I will point to Mr. Canales'

brother, who is a Special Ranger and a good man, and I want

to see him kept one if it is continued.

Q Now, I believe there has been no testimony here of any out¬

rages on the part of the Rangers in Jim Wells County, where you

live. That is rather a large sized county, is it not, from

North to South, at least?

A Yes, it is a long county.

2 And there is a very considerable Mexican population in that

county?

that tha

A Yes, sir, there is.

2 Now, it has been suggested also by Mr. Canales, I believe,

when he was testifying, and also by the Justice of the Peace,

that the exodus of draft registrants and their families from

Cameron County was occasioned by fear of the Rangers. I will

ask you if that condition as to Mexican people who had been

registered for service in the Army--if there was an exodus of

that type of men from Jim Wells County?

he

ar

A I forgot all that question.

Q Well, put it another way: Do you know whether there is any

considerable number of men who registered in Jim Wells County,

the Mexican people, who went across the river to keep out of

the Army?

hat

A I know positively they left; I presume it was for that reason.

Q Did you ever hear it claimed in Jim Wells County that they

were leaving for fear the Rangers were going to kill them?

A I never heard it, and it would not be true as to our county.

Q Did you ever hear that from any part of the country until

this investigation started?

A No, sir.

ou

he

0

2 Now, Mr. MeGill, you had a very heated senatorial campaign

in that district?

edto advance the candidaey of Glasee

A Yes, sir.

Q And the people took very decided stands in favor of the two

Did you

candidates, Parr and Glasscock?

bafers you

up

A Yes, sir, that was the issue.

2 I will ask you if it is not true that many, many people and

politicians, who are citizens, supporting one of those candidates,

if they did not charge and complain that the Ranger force was

used for the purpose of advancing the candidacy of the other

man?

den L

A Well, I could not say that that existed in our county.

2 Well, in the district?

A Well, I have heard it claimed here, yes, sir, ever since I

an

have been here.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Judge, pardon me. Did you ever hear

it claimed before you came up here?

A I heard it in this way, Judge---I don't know whether I ought

to answer your question like I intend to, but I heard that that

faction was going to use that; that is the spirit that I heard

tern

it in.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That one faction in the senatorial contest

was going to urge against the Rangers the fact of their activities

in the senatorial election?

A Well, that was the rumor.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Did you hear that before you left home?

A Well, now, I could not point you to any one that said it.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: But you know you have heard it around

the Capitol here?

nho

ople

0

A Yes, sir.

put

ra any

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: That's all.

as State Library and Archives Commission

2 Well, now, did you hear any complaint in that part of the

country that the Parr supporters were complaining because the

Rangers were used to advance the candidacy of Glasscock?

A No, sir.

& Didn't hear that in Jim Wells or Jim Hogg. Did you ever

have any acquaintance with Captain Hanson before you came up

here to this hearing?

A I might have met him; I never had any intimate acquaintance

with him.

intimately

8

2 Now, you know Captain Sanders?

A Yes, sir.

2 For quite a long time his headquarters have been in and around

Alice?

ane

Is Hid raputation am to wkether ha is

A Yes, sir.

2 What type of man is Captain Sanders, as to whether he is an

honorable, upright eitizen and a just, efficient and humane

officer?

A Well, my own picture--my picture of Captain Sanders is kind

of in---well, he is a kind of character all his own; I could

not tell you just how to express it. I regard Captain Sanders

as--well, one of the old time Western type; he is very gentle¬

manly, and I regard him as a fearless officer and a good one.

Q What is his reputation down there among the people with whom

he has been stationed as to whether he is an efficient and humane

SO

officer?

ate it entirely, that

A I have never heard anything like that.

ethan for man

Q What do you mean--never heard any criticism?

A No, sir, never heard him criticized, outside of here--I mean

down there.

2 I mean down there among those people; they know him best. To

put it another way, then, have you heard any complaint--

s State Library and Archives Commission

1155

4 these oil wells developed up here that will cause the

2 --of any respectable citizen down there of any cruel or harsh

treatment of the public by him as an officer?

A No, sir. hey did need Rangers but don't need tham now, the

0 You know Captain Wright?

A Yes, sir.or ou need h right sway, but after you get

What type and character of man is he, as to whether he is an

efficient and humane officer and honorable man, and how is he

regarded by the people along those lines?

A I have not known Captain Wright intimately so very long; I

know him more by reputation.

That's exactly what I want.

A He has the reputation of being a good and fearless officer.

Well, what is his reputation as to whether he is a humane

uld say twel

and kind officer or a cruel one?

A I never heard any complaint of his cruelty.

2 Do you know John Edds?

A No, sir, I never met him until I got here.

2 I believe it is suggested in Mr. Canales' bill that the

Ranger force be materially decreased, with a provision that it

can be increased by the Governor.

A That I mentioned that there should be a decrease in it?

d No, that is the bill. Do you believe the Ranger force as

now constituted should be decreased?

A I think this about it: If you eliminate it from that country

which has caused so much discussion, eliminate it entirely, that

the rest of Texas needs Rangers more at this time than for many

years past.

Well why

A Well, there is hardly a paper you pick up that you don't see

strikes and societies of people that are not doing any good, and

we have these oil wells developed up here that will cause the

congregation of many people and I believe Rangers will be needed;

and I want to say, in reference to the testimony of the gentleman

that said they did need Rangers but don't need them now, the

thought came to me, it is just like a man who is sick, when

you need a doctor you need him right away, but after you get

well don't destroy the medical profession--you are apt to have

another spell and need him again.

ineluding

MR. MOSES: That's all.

dientt

CROSS EXAMINATION.

Pirtae

y. and you y

By Mr. Canales.

thogs baniits

How far is the ranch of Wilbur Allen from where that raid

took place, Mr. MeGill?

A I don't know exactly, Mr. Canales; I would say twelve miles.

2 Didn't you know that Mr. Wilbur Allen was a Special Ranger?

A No, sir, I didn't know it at that time.

2 Do you believe that those bandits would have raided it if

they had known Mr. Wilbur Allen was a Special Ranger in twelve

miles of them?

O

nd sh a

A I don't believe that would have stopped them, no, sir.

2 How far is the Tom East ranch from the frontier--the river?

A Well, now, you heard me make that statement, and I don't make

it as knowing; I say I judge about forty-five miles.

2 Those fellows had apparently come from Mexico, hadn't they,

Mr. MeGill?

lid this

A Well, as to that, I will tell you what I told Captain Wright

when he arrived there next morning. He said, "Now, what class

of men were they, as to being desperate and so forth?" I said,

"Captain, I've got them classed up as being Texans, Mexicans and

Slackers." I don't believe there was a man there over thirty

years old; they could have been thirty-five. That is the

impression they left on me, and I can give you the reasons for it.

0 How many regular Rangers arrived there with Captain Wright?

A I could not tell you exactly; I will say there were as many

as four and the Captain; there may have been more.

& Where did they come from?

A They came from Hebbronville.

vil hecaus when ona

0 Didn't you know in Hebbronville there were also fourteen

Special Rangers there at that time--fifteen including Mr. Wilbur

P. Allen?

ath and he did

A No, sir, I didnit.

Fifteen and five regular Rangers made twenty, and you say

those bandits were thirteen?

A That's the number that I saw. Now, it was dark, and just

let me tell you, while we were under guard Mrs. East went in the

house and came back very excitedly and sat down by me and said,

"Don't you and Steve try to do anything." I said, "Well, now,

we ain't," - (Laughter)-Was long as we ain't got any better shot

than we have." I said, "There is only five here; I know I

can handle one." She said, "The whole front is full of them."

I said, "How do you know?" and she said, "I can see them smoking

out there.

0 Five remained with you and eight went to Hebbronville?

A I know eight went to Hebbronville and five were there.

Now, those fellows went to Hebbronville, where there were

four regular Rangers and some Special Rangers?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: When did this oceur?

MR. CANALES: Last year.

ha know of any

A I didn't say that; I said they started to Hebbronville and

they went in four miles of Hebbronville and turned around and

came back. Mr. Moses asked me if I knew why, if the boy said

why, and I didn't testify.

Q I understood you to say they had gone to Hebbronville to rob

the bank?

A That was their intention.

They didn't go there?

A NOGHAIRMAN BIEDSOE: Vou havs an te the prebable effeot of a

Q And you say the captain was rather civil because when one of

them began to be rather--

A Annoying.

0 --annoying to you he told him to shut up his mouth and he did?

A Yes, sir, to shut up his mouth and he did.

2 And they carried off provisions, but never molested anybody

else?

A No, sir, except the little touch they gave me.

2 Now, you had a very good Sheriff just before this one--Mr.

Osborn, he was a good Sheriff?

A Yes, sir, a good Sheriff and a good man.

Q Did you ever hear that he was ever deterred or handicapped

from arresting a cattle thief in Jim Wells County simply because

of his bond?

That

A No, sir.

MR. MOSES: Mr. Canales knows a Sheriff has no right to

arrest anybody out of his county.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: No, he is asking about his own county.

A No, sir, I never knew of that.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, I think this examination is

taking rather a broad turn.

MR. CANALES: Well, I asked him whether he knew of any

single instance where Mr. Osborn, as good a Sheriff as we had,

was in any way deterred or handicapped or prevented from arresting

any cattle thief in Jim Wells County simply because of his bond.

Q Did he always do his duty?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Mr. Canales, I still think the examina¬

tion is taking too long a scope.

MR. CANALES: Mr. Chairman, they brought up the question of

the bond and I have a right to cross examine him about the bond.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: You have as to the probable effect of a

bond on a Ranger, but you are asking a hypothetical question

about a condition that never existed.

MR. CANALES: Take the witness.

a

othe,

itizene

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

4 Zen, dir!

By Mr. Moses.

gera?

2 Do you know Tom Moseley?

A Yes, sir.

Was he in that posse that followed the bandits?

A Yes, sir.

2 Is he also a Special Ranger?

A Yes, sir, and also inspector of the Cattle Raisers' Associa¬

tion. I never got through naming all those; also old man

Reed came. Tom Moseley went with the Rangers.

MR. MOSES: That's all.

Hou did yon go?

AAMINATION BY MR. TIDWELL.

What county was this hold-up of the ranch in?

and the ather man is the aama

A Jim Hogg County.

How far from Hebbronville?

A Thirty-five miles South.

MR. TIDWELL: That's all.

It locked liofs GAR TOPsOwe eame to where

recalled, testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Moses.

Mr. Thompson, you have just heard the testimony of Mr. MeGill?

A Yes, sir.

41, Put

g-

In which he described the raiding of the Tom East ranch in

Jim Hogg County, in which he testified that you in company with

other eitizens went out from Hebbronville to the East ranch?

A Yes, sir.

It being composed of regular Rangers and Special Rangers?

A Special Rangers.

Q And so on. Were there any in that posse who were not

either regular Rangers or Special Rangers?

A I don't think so.

14n

2 What time was it you arrived at the East ranch?

A We got there just about daylight. Mr. Wright came to my

house I think about 3.30 or 4 o'clock and we were at the East

ranch in two hours.

Q How did you go?

A I put Mr. Wright's men in my truck and I got in the car with

Captain Wright and Henry Edds and we went in the lead.

et

Q You are the same Oscar Thompson and the other man is the same

Henry Edds that Mr. Canales referred to as having Special Ranger

commissions?

that night with

A Yes, sir.

A We followed the trail from the ranch until we got to where

they took the road towards Roma and Captain Wright sent me to

Rio Grande City after the balance of his men.

MR. TIDWELL: Talk a little louder.

1191

A It looked like fifteen or eighteen men until we came to where

they went towards Roma and Captain Wright sent me to Rio Grande

City after the balance of his men.

2 Who accompanied you to Rio Grande City?

A Mr. Edds and I don't remember who else was in the car. I

remember Mr. Edds was there, and I think the Sheriff, Pat Craig¬

head. He had four men, I think, at Rio Grande City and I went

and got them and came back to where he was camped.

2 Now, do you know from what you afterwards saw whether or not

they overtook the bandits?

A Yes, sir, overtook one; I saw him.

2 You saw his body?

nk Mr. Chnales is rasding from a 110

A Yes, sir.

angers, andwe object, bepanbe that Is unfair

2 Where was that?

A That was at a ranch, I believe what they call the Javelin

Ranch.

& In what county?

A I can't tell you; it is in either Starr or Zapata.

time

2 How far from the East ranch was it?

Whothsy

A About twenty-four or twenty-five miles.

& Did you know that Mexican?

A No, sir; I only stayed there a few minutes; he didn't let

me get dinner; he sent me back after his camp outfit; I was

used to doing without dinner all my life, and I went after it

and got back to the camp about twelve o'clock that night with

his outfit.

2 Well, neither you nor Mr. Edds were present at the time they

overtook the bandits?

Habbro

A No, sir.

Gounty.

MR. MOSES: That's all.

1192

CROSS EXAMINATION.

A Yes, eir, and another

brother.

By Mr. Canales.

MoCampbell?

Q Do you know John L. Dannelley?

at is Ralph MoGampbell's sen.

A Yes, sir.

2 I mean W. A. Dannelley?

twendy-thrse yeare old. He didn't have

A Yes, sir.

2 What is his business?

A He is a bookkeeper and County Clerk; he is my bookkeeper.

2 He is also a Special Ranger?

lson?

A Yes, sir.

t itr

2 Asa Draper?

at is hie businesu?

A Yes, sir.

MR. MOSES: I think Mr. Canales is reading from a list of

former Special Rangers, and we object, because that is unfair

cross examination--men appointed under Governor Derguson, for

whom General Harley is not responsible.

A No, they are appointed under this administration, and they

are good men.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: If it relates to Rangers at the time of

this incident he would certainly have a right to know who they

were.

Q Asa Draper?

lers?

A Yes, sir.

brother.

2 What does he do?

A He is a ranchman. He came on that drive, too, afterwards.

Q H. E. Gardner?

A Gardner. He cussed me out because we didn't 'phone him to

go with us.

Q Does he live in Hebbronville?

A No, sir, he lives in Duval County.

Osco

2 Will Gonzales?

A He's a foreman of mine.

Q Got your bookkeeper and also your foreman?

A Yes, sir, and another foreman and a brother.

2 Well, I'll come to it. J. H. MeCampbell?

A I. H. That is Ralph MeCampbell's son.

2 How old is he?

14

A He is twenty-two or twenty-three years old. He didn't have

a commission at that time.

2 But he was made a Special Ränger?

A Yes, sir, since that raid.

2 G. C. Olson?

AG. N., isn't it?

ces twenty-thres, and how many started

2 G. N. What is his business?

A He is a farmer. He did have a saloon, but he is a farmer

now.

Q A Special Ranger?

relve

7a.

A Yes, sir.

Q Was he in that posse?

A No, sir; he would have been if we could have got to him.

2 W. W. Saunders?

A He is a Special Ranger and ranchman.

RSEEAD

Q He lives in Hebbronville?

A Yes, sir.

2 J. C. Saunders?

A Yes, sir, that's his brother.

Benite?

How old is he?

A J. C. is sixty years old.

2 His brother is younger?

A Yes, sir.

Oscar Thompson, yourself?

A Yes, sir.

That is the same Oscar Thompson?

A Yes, sir.

2 Henry Woods?

A Yes, sir.

How old is he?

bout six or eight miles to the river

A He is thirty-two or thirty-three years old.

2 Whose foreman is he?

A W. P. Allen's--a good, reliable man; every one you have

called is as good, reliable a man as is in South Texas.

2 How many Rangers were stationed there?

A I think eight.

2 Fifteen and eight makes twenty-three, and how many started

after those bandits?

ation was

bo

a

r wars ras-

A As many as we could get hold of; it was night.

2 How many were there?

n were taken aut aad

A There were ten or twelve of us, maybe more.

2 And just killed one?

A Yes, sir.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

.MOTHERSHEAD

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

ror

existing?

By Mr. Moses.

Judge Mothershead, you live at San Benito?

A Yes, sir.

several bandit raids

What is your business?

A I am an attorney.

How long have you lived in Cameron County?

A Eight years past.

er ranch, and I think a

e What official positions have you held?

A None except City Attorney for about six years there.

s State Library and Archives Commission

e city Attorney?

AYes, sir.

How close is San Benito to the Rio Grande river?

A I think it is about six or eight miles to the river; I don't

know the exact distance.

did not 4o

2 Now, you were living there, of course, during the year 1915

and since?

A Since 1910, yes, sir.

itha

Since 1910?

able to oope with the situstion

A Yes, sir.

2 There has been some testimony in this case, and I don't re¬

member what the location was now as to what Rangers were res¬

ponsible for it, of some people who had been arrested and placed

in the jail or calaboose at San Benito and were taken out and

killed during the year 1915. Were you living there at that

time?

A I was, yes, sir.

ante

Q Were you City Attorney at that time?

A Yes, sir.

e

ers not

2 What was the condition of the public mind then as to whether

people were going about their usual business in a calm frame of

mind or whether there was excitement and a reign of terror

existing?

in hand and

A At that time, early in the Spring of 1915, the public mind

was very much agitated. We had had several bandit raids. The

first, I believe, was the shooting at a surveyor and the next,

I think, was the attempt to burn the bridge near Sebastian--made

two attempts, and stretched some wire across the road, and then

there was a raid down on the Scribner ranch, and I think along

about that time or near that time was the time that they killed

Soldier MeGraw, and continual reports were coming in that the

1176

7

Mexicans were crossing the river in great numbers and were

coming across to attack the city, had terrorized the citizens

until a great many of them were leaving the town, and we could

not get any protection of local officials and the county

officials could not cope with the situation, or did not do it,

and we had appealed to the Governor for protection, but didn't

get any--got a very sarcastic reply; we told him that our

citizens were being murdered, their property stolen, and that

the county officials were not able to cope with the situation

and that there was a crying need of our people for protection,

and he wired back: "What is the crying need you speak of?"

We saw we couldn't get any help. That was Governor Ferguson.

Then we organized our people to try and protect ourselves, and

we notified those in the country to come in town as far as they

could, not to stay in the country, and every night we would put

out guards on every road that entered the town, some four or

five, and that went on until the soldiers came, the National

Guard, and they helped us the same way, they would put out

guards to protect the town, and the soldiers were not able to

8

cope with the situation, and a number of people left the town--

I could mention some of them--afraid to keep their families

there, others sent their wives and children away. Finally

ed

the Rangers came and they soon got the situation in hand and re¬

te0

stored order.

Stevene

anson

Q Now, do you remember the circumstance of the mobbing of some

people there, Mexicans, that were said--or one of them, at

least--said to have been taken out of jail and mobbed. Were

you living there at that time?

A I was living there, but don't know anything about it of my

own knowledge.

ain

Well, you have lived there ever since?

now him before he came down thers as a Ranger?

2 You heard a great deal of discussion of it afterwards?

A Yes, sir.

Gameron Gounty

Now, I will ask you what is your recollection as to whether

there were any Rangers there at San Benito at that time?

A I don't think there were any Rangers at that time. There

might have been at the time of some of the occurrences later on.

2 Well, I am talking about the time when Daniel Hinojosa was

there. He was not a Ranger, but a local officer?

A Yes, sir.

gn for the nominatien and in tha

2 Have you heard it claimed by any responsible people that

any Rangers were responsible for that mob?

A I don't think the impression prevails amongst the people

that the Rangers were responsible.

2 Now, do you know Captain Hanson?

A Yes, sir.

2 How long have you known him?

A Only a short time.

Arge that thay wa

ng

Q I will ask you if Captain Hanson was rather active down there

since he has been in the Ranger service--been down there several

times?

ibly there

A Yes, sir, I think so.

2 I will ask you how Captain Hanson is regarded or was regarded

before your political troubles started over the senatorial race?

A Do you mean Stevens or Hanson?

2 Hanson. How was he regarded, as to whether he was regarded

as an honest, efficient and honorable officer?

A Our people regard the Rangers as efficient.

Well, I am referring to Hanson.

A Yes, siriin

How about Captain Stevens?

A Yes, sir.

foros dovn

roason

1198

State Library and Archives Commission

Q Did you know him before he came down there as a Ranger?

7 and 1918

A I did not, no, sir.

About how long was he stationed in Cameron County?

A Why, Captain Stevens was stationed there a month or so to my

knowledge. He was very efficient and gentlemanly; he attended

to his own business--a genteel man and a man that could not be

ffect

improperly influenced. That was my impression.

Q I will ask you if it is not true that there was a great deal

of interest taken in the campaign for State Senator in that

district during the last campaign for the nomination and in the

general election?

AYes, sir. posltion that the Ranger oocupies is different te

During loismer official. In the firat place, he has a

egimlass of people to denl with. Prom my own observa¬

Q I will ask you if it is true that there was any criticism

of the Ranger force among some of the people down there or some

of the politicians in regard to the alleged activity of the

Rangers in that contest and any charge that they were favoring

the candidacy of one man as against the candidacy of the other

aspirant for that place?

A Practically no criticism at San Benito, but possibly there

might be one out of ten---no, there isn't that many. Mostly

the criticism came from the politicians at the county seat.

th

officials were not

Q At the county seat?

Wes, Sir him, if he made any mistake then he would be

Q I will ask you if it was not charged and complained of that

the Rangers were used to advance the candidacy of Glasscock over

Parmquita, but if you brought it to this adunty, why, it would

A Yes, sir, I have heard that complaint made.

Now, prior to the primary election in July, 1918, at which

Parr and Glasscock were candidates for that office, had you

heard any complaint of the Ranger force down there by reason

of their conduct during 1916, 1917 and 1918?

A I did not. On the contrary, I heard a great deal of praise.

2 Now, Mr. Mothershead, I will ask you to state for the benefit

of the Committee what you think of the wisdom of that provision

of Mr. Canales' bill that provides for bonding the Rangers,

whether you think it a wise or unwise provision and what effect

abont.

it would have on the efficiency of the Ranger force?

A Why, in my opinion it would destroy the efficiency of the

porting Shariff Vann, begause I theugh

Ranger force.

mae a good efficer and rapresent the will of the

A Well, the position that the Ranger occupies is different to

that of any other official. In the first place, he has a

different class of people to deal with. From my own observa¬

tion the county officials are not able to cope with these Mexican

bandits; they are more like the Indians, and it takes a man

that knows them, who understands them and knows how to capture

them and acquainted with their ways, and he has got to take

chances; I mean he can't afford to take chances that any other

official could, and I think if he was under bond, why, it would

hamper him; in other words, he could not afford to be as effic¬

ient in the service, he would not be of the same service as he

is; and again, I think if you placed him under bond and he

happened to go in a county where the local officials were not

favorable to him, if he made any mistake then he would be

brought---of course, the bill provides to bring the venue to

this county, but if you put it in that county he would be subject

to suits, but if you brought it to this county, why, it would

almost break up any man to defend the suits, because he would

have to bring his witnesses so far it would be hard to get them.

Any one who has practiced law knows the difficulties under

which a man labors under those circumstances.

2 Do you know the circumstance of the arrest of a County Com¬

missioner down there by Captain Stevens' men?-there has been

some testimony in regard to it.

A Who is that--Commissioner Edwards?

tbout

2 Yes.

imarv election?

A Yes, sir, I do.

9 Well, tell us what you know about that and why it came about.

A Well, going back a little so you will understand it, in the

last campaign I was supporting Sheriff Vann, because I thought

he would make a good officer and represent the will of the

people, and the information came to me that whiskey was being

ted on

sold at this time contrary to law.

the evidence for him and ha

ore

& At what place?

he wrote domn the evidence

A At Point Isabel--that's the home of the Commissioner--and

that it was being sold to soldiers and that the evidence was

being collected and the man would be arrested, and, being

favorable to the Sheriff, Mr. Vann, I telephoned him--that was

late in the evening--I 'phoned him about seven or eight ofclock

at night and told him that I had a very important matter for

him and for him to meet me at Barreda.. I met him on the road

and I informed him of the facts and told him I wanted to give

him an opportunity to go there and see and arrest the man if he

was violating the law. Well, the next I knew, the next day

the Rangers in company with the Justice of the Peace came to

my office and he asked me to draw a complaint, and I drew the

complaint, charging a violation of the State law, another the

law of 1917, I don't remember just what it was now. After

he was taken in charge by the Rangers he didn't make any request

to give bond. They took him out of the office and later they

brought him back and he requested to make bond, and the Justice

of the Peace asked me if he was entitled to make bond. I told

him most assuredly he was, and he made bond and was released.

He waived his examining trial.

Now, when was that---was that subsequent to the time when

the State went dry?

A That was about the time of the election.

The primary election?

unby testified

A Yes, sir.

& I think it will be admitted that that sad day was the 26th

of June.

A Yes, sir.

2 Well, what was the charge---what about liquor was it?

A Why, the Justice of the Peace insisted on taking the testimony

of witnesses and I wrote--took the evidence for him and he swore

the witnesses and he wrote down the evidence.

2 Well, did you take a complaint or just write the evidence?

A Oh, I wrote a complaint.

2 What was the charge?

A Well, charged him with violating the law, unlawfully selling

whiskey, and also in reference to the ten mile zone law, isn't

it the other one? There were two laws being violated.

0 Do you know why the Rangers interfered with that matter?

A Because it was thought it was a violation of the law. They

had evidence showing that he had violated the law. They stated--

there were two witnesses that gave testimony---am I violating

the rule in stating that?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Better not do it.

0 Well, now, was there any effort so far as you know on the

part of the local peace officers of Cameron County to arrest

that man for violation of the liquor law?

A No, sir. If there has ever been any prosecution of that

I don't know it. I will state further that the Rangers

1208

brought him to San Benito, they said, because-

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, never mind that.

Q Well, that is not admissible.

A All,right.

Now, do you know anything about the circumstance of a Mexican

being shot down there by citizens or Rangers, and to call your

attention to it it is the circumstance that Mr. Busby testified

about having found a Mexican-

MR. CANALES: That was in another county--in Hidalgo County.

MR. MOSES: All right. I got the places mixed up. That's

all.

ales that it is a oustom

A There is one other thing I would like to state, Gentlemen.

Go ahead, if there is any matter-

A I neglected it a while ago. One reason why I think the

Rangers are needed, the citizens there have found that when

they make a complaint to the county officials that it is hazard¬

ous, and for instance take the incident of R. E. Cunningham

and also another officer who made complaint. They are intimi¬

dated--they are afraid.

1y

MR. KNIGHT: Explain that Gunningham matter.

A Well, I don't know that of my own knowledge; it is general

repute. If they make complaint they seem to have a complete

system--whatever you do is known on the other side; that is

where the bandits are thought to be; they seem to have a thorough

understanding, and if a man does anything and they find it out

it is very dangerous to him; but with the Rangers there we are

not exposed to that risk; they fear the Rangers; they know

they can't get away from them and they know that there won't

be any foolishness in the matter, and also we have had the

experience of having examining trials where the evidence would

be sufficient for a conviction and be taken to Brownsville and

the man would be turned out and never prosecuted. Our people

are up against that situation, where if we don't have protection

12uas State Library and Archives Commission

of the Rangers and if not unhampered as it is supposed to be

here we are not safe in our property nor our lives; and I will

say further that there is over ninety per cent of the citizens

that are now, if this bill is passed in this shape it is going

to be one of the greatest blows to that country that could be

perpetrated.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: You mean ninety per eent of the eitizen¬

ship of Cameron County?

A No, I mean around San Benito, where I am acquainted.

0 It is alleged by Mr. Canales that it is a custom and habit

of Rangers that where there is danger of being killed they were

usually found at some other place. I will ask you if you ever

heard of that charge against the Rangers in Cameron County before

you heard it by Mr. Canales?

A No, sir, I have not.

What is their reputation as to whether they have gone where

danger was thickest during those troublous times?

A Their reputation is as efficient, fearless officers and they

stand well with the people in my community.

MR. MOSES: That's all.

nd

.

2 Well, I

Le he

ranchman there?

CROSS EXAMINATION.

or?

By Mr. Canales.

2 Judge, you know Daniel Hinojosa?

irs.

I don't underutand

A Yes, sir, I know him.

What sort of man is he?

us

A Why, personally I don't know anything against him. He hasn't

üsrarän and

a very good reputation.

2 Weren't you City Attorney at the time he and Frank Carr were

bleeding those poor, unfortunate women in San Benito?

A I don't know of that incident.

2 Don't you know when he made public acknowledgment that he

was doing so and dividing the fees with you?

ght the bond up

A I think you have reference to somebody else.

2 Don't you know that he has been incorporated in the Ranger

force?

su.

A No, I don't know that.

Q You think he is a very fine man for it?

A Why, Daniel Hinojosa has made a good officer to my knowledge.

2 You think he is all right for the Ranger force?

A I could not say that I do, no.

9 let the

Q Now, do you know Mr. Lon Hill?

and further beganse ue

A Yes, sir.

know those people were guilty of

Q How many cattle does he own?

tuke it.

A I don't know.

oome in there with that bend?

Q Do you know Joe Taylor?

whether it was that evening or not.

A Yes, sir.

no thak the Hangarn took hir

Q How many cattle does he own?

A I don't know how many cattle Mr. Taylor owns.

2 Haven't you known him over there as a Federal officer?

A Yes, sir, I know him as an officer and a citizen; he is a

very efficient eitizen and a splendid officer.

2 Well, I am asking you about cattle. Is he a ranchman there?

A Mr. Taylor?

2 Yes.

en

A I don't know about his private affairs. I don't understand

him to be a ranchman, no, sir.

2 I never knew it until I came here to Austin. Judge, you

said you were present at the time and advised about Edwards and

said he was entitled to bond. Is that true?

A After he waived his examining trial?

2 Well, after the whole thing was over?

A Yes, he made bond.

2 Made bond in San Benito?

A Yes, sir; Mr. Dancy, County Attorney, brought the bond up

there.

n did you first know about it?

Q When was that?

day or two before that.

A It was after he was arrested.

sfore the election and

2 Don't you know he was arrested prior to dinner and had his

examining trial about one o'elock?

A We didn't have an examining trial. We took some ex parte

affidavits of those witnesses after he had waived examining

trial because we wanted the testimony and wanted to let the

people know what the testimony was, and further because we

knew that they would never know those people were guilty of

rein

violating the law unless we did take it.

Q Well, when did Mr. Dancy come in there with that bond?

A I could not tell you whether it was that evening or not.

2 Mr. Mothershead, don't you know that the Rangers took him

down there the same day?

A I don't know; I heard they did.

Q Don't you know that bond was denied and they took him to

Mercedes---you know Mr. George?

nd the Justice of the Peass came?

A Yes, sir.

And myself were over in your office that day?

the

A Yes, sir.

ntl

kr

aaled me to draw

apers for him.

And Sadler and who was the other that arrested him?

as no

A Mr. Sadler was one of the Rangers; I don't remember who the

other was.

Is he here?

A I don't know.

in't tell yon that

2 There were three Rangers, weren't there?

A Yes, I think so.

2 The two Sadler boys and another Ranger?

A Yes, sir.

e,rou Say ou bslleve tha Rangers are necessarg because

as State Library and Archives Commission

Q Now, how long had he been violating the law there?

A I could not tell you.

2 When did you first know about it?

A I knew of it a day or two before that.

Q So you waited until the day before the election and sent the

Rangers to have him arrested?

A No, sir, I didn't do that.

0 You didn't do that?

ANo, sir.

Who did that?

A On the contrary, as I told you, I got in communication with

Sheriff Vann over the telephone and had him meet me at Barreda

and gave him the information that I had heard.

They brought him to your office?

A They brought him next day, yes, sir.

Q You were not City Attorney at that time?

A No, sir.

pmittse. 2he

& You held no official position at all?

ANo, sir, I did not.

0 And they came down there and the Justice of the Peace came?

14 Yes. Sir. Whare ha hen ne testimeny offered by us that

Q And you framed up the papers?

A Yes, sir; he frequently asked me to draw up papers for him.

The first time he asked about bond didn't you say it was not

a bailable offense?

A Nonsim.3uS: Tes, I learned that ahout thirty geare ago, and

Q Before myself and Mr. J. C. George?

A No, sir, I didn't tell you that.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

lla ihe Dist

T

EXAMINATTON BY CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE.

2 Judge, you say you believe the Rangers are necessary because

when arrests are made from your end of the county and taken to

Brownsville the man is not prosecuted?

A Very seldom a prosecution.

2 Do you say the courts are corrupt?

A No, sir, I do not. The court can't convict without a prose¬

cution.

of the Stats and kie ätten

2 But your statement was that they were turned out without

prosecution?

bed in their

A We have had that, yes, sir.

authorities, I

Q Until the people think it is the rule?

A Until the people in San Benito think it is the rule. I am

giving you the facts.

noe of this

2 You think your Sheriff, District Judge, District Attorney

and County Attorney can not be relied on to enforce the law?

A I don't want to say that.

pra him or the case

MR. MOSES: Mr. Chairman, we want to interpose an objection

to the question asked by the Chairman of the Committee. The

Chairman knows the District Judge can not prosecute anybody, and

it is not a reflection on him if the District Attorney don't do

his duty. We think the question including the District Judge

is improper. There has been no testimony offered by us that

reflects on the integrity of the District Judge.

SENATOR WITT: I think the Chairman is correct. The

District Attorney can't dismiss a case unless the District Judge

is willing.

my own knowledge they havs been oarried

1218

MR. MOSES: Yes, I learned that about thirty years ago, and

if the District Attorney don't do his duty in the investigation

of the case before the Grand Jury and the Grand Jury don't do

theirs there won't be any case to dismiss.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: If the District Judge tells the District

Attorney to do so and so he generally does it.

MR. MOSES: I don't know such to be the case.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I have no desire to get into a contro¬

versy. I will say this: My experience is that the District

Judge is about the most quoted factor in a prosecution. You

know that he has absolute power to remove the Sheriff and Dist¬

riet Attorney at any time that the District Attorney or Sheriff

refuses to enforce the criminal laws of the State and his atten¬

tion is called to that, just as in the Wallace case from a border

county, they can be removed and other men appointed in their

places, and this charge being made against the authorities, I

want to know about it, because if such a condition exists I

think they need more Rangers.

A Well, now, a District Judge might feel in instances of this

kind, he usually eredits the prosecuting attorney and the offi¬

cers with doing their duty. If the testimony is not suffic¬

ient, if the witnesses are not brought before him or the case

made ready for trial or hangs on the docket until worn out and

witnesses are gone it would be a failure of justice and maybe

the District Judge will not be responsible. I don't mean to

discredit the District Judge, because I think he is an excellent

judge---Judge Hopkins---and I don't believe he is responsible

for the failure of justice.

You think he is derelict in the matter?

A No, sir, not consciously..

Well, consciously or unconsciously?

A Well, I know of my own knowledge they have been carried down

there and no prosecution.

Q Well, now, I have never been in your county and I am asking

for information. Is Point Isabel and San Benito in the same

justice precinct?

A No, sir.

Q How far apart?

A About twenty-five or thirty miles.

Q Hor far from Point Isabel to Brownsville?

A About twenty-two.

2 Your County Judge and County Attorney both live in Browns¬

ville?

7

11e7

A Yes, sir.

2 Where does your District Attorney live?

A He lives in Brownsville.

2 Where does your Sheriff live?

ra that day

A In Brownsville.

i that day.

2 Where does your County Attorney live?

A In Brownsville.

18

might have been at the

2 Don't you think it is strange that one of your officials

charged with a felony should be taken across to another town,

to your office, instead of where the county officials were?

A He was carried to an official, the Justice of the Peace,

as a magistrate, for an examining trial.

Q But that was in a justice precinct more distant than the

county seat?

or

A Well, I understand that a magistrate has jurisdiction in

those matters coextensive with the limits of the county, and it

is a lamentable fact that they thought it necessary to move him

there that a proper charge be made.

In other words, such an oversight of duty prevailed at that

time in Brownsville that they had to go to the officials in San

Benito?

A Yes, sir.

th

to

n

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Stand aside.

EXAMINATION BY MR. LACKEY.

2 You say the County Attorney came to San Benito and brought

the bond?

REDIRGOT EXAHINADION.

A Yes, sir.

By Nr. Moses.

2 Was that the day of the election?

A No, sir, the day before the election.

2 In other words, the County Attorney brought the defendant's

bond up from Brownsville?

A Yes, sir.

2 Was it already filled out and prepared?

A Yes, sir, and signed.

red herd and bestified as

Q You say the Sheriff came up there that day?

A No, sir, I didn't see the Sheriff that day.

Q Did you see him the next day?

A Not that I remember, no, sir; he might have been at the

election the next day; I will not be positive about that.

2 Judge, what was that about Mr. Robertson, one of your leading

citizens down there--was he shot or beat up or something not

long ago?

A Who is that? Colonel Sam Robertson?

you know that

wnd made in Garlingun and

2 Yes.

A Lieutenant Colonel now. Yes, he was shot at by some bandits

and there was the mark of a bullet through his shoe heel and

also one through his coat; I have seen the tree where the

battle took place, and there were bullet holes in the tree

where he showed me.

Was that a fight with bandits?

ves eisd de if it was n geod band. If I remember, it had

2 You say as far as you know and as far as general rumor there

went that the Rangers had nothing to do with the men that were

taken out of jail?

A I have never heard them accused of it, no, sir.

MR. LACKEY: That's all.

1241

Nr. Gaorge.

REDIREGT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Moses.

Now, do you know why the Gounty Attorney should be so inter¬

ested in making bond for a man violating the liquor law and

selling liquor to soldiers and other people?

A Why, that would call for an opinion only; I have no facts.

0 Well, the County Attorney--that's Mr. Dancy?

A Yes, sir.

Q Is that the same Mr. Dancy who appeared here and testified as

at

a witness?

A Yes, sir.

MR. MOSES: That's all.

d Did you ever hear of them standing g

RECROSS EXAMINATION.

& I heurd of their de

By Mr. Canales.

After an affair teol

Gum

2 Judge, do you mean to say that the County Attorney brought

that bond?

A That's my recollection.

2 Why, don't you know that that bond was made in Harlingen and

that Captain Vann took it at eleven o'clock that night?

ANo, sir.

ing

2 And that Mr. Dancy was in Brownsville at the time?

A I don't know that Sheriff Vann had anything to do with it,

but I do remember that the Justice of the Peace showed me the

bond and told me that Mr. Dancy brought it and I saw Mr. Dancy

and he asked me if it was a good bond. If I remember, it had

Judge Wells on it, and Oscar Dancy, and I don't remember whether

your name was on it or not, Joe.

2 I was not there. I was in your office at the time you

refused to give him bond.

aignt or

A How is that---the time I refused to give him bond?

Q Yes, the time you told him it was not bailable; I was with

Mr. George,n information.

A You are certainly mistaken, because I have had more sense than

that ever since I was admitted to the bar. (Laughter)

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Let's have order.

Isn't it a fact that whenever there was a disturbance during

the bandit troubles that those places were guarded by soldiers-

a guard of soldiers sent to take care of them and protect the

people at night?

4 Yasen't know of any.at San Benito now.

Q Did you ever see any Rangers standing guard at night in that

whole Brownsville country?

A I don't know what the Rangers did out on guard.

Q Did you ever hear of them standing guard at night?

A I heard of their doing their duty.

& After an affair took place in Brownsville or Cameron County

did you ever hear that Rangers were sent to guard at night---

wasn't it soldiers?

A I know they had soldiers out two or three in a bunch and

they were helpless, some were murdered, and they were not able

to cope with the situation, and after the Rangers came they

stopped stealing and murdering.

Don't you know that the bandit troubles ceased after Nafarette

was removed from over there?

nation.

A They have not ceased today.

Q Mention one raid now.

Een't it

Vann

A Why, there is old man Prentiss; they stole all his work stock.

O

2 How many bandits were there?

ade ard tied.

A Why, they stole four head.

Q I say, how many bandits?

He reported it and the next night or so

A Well, I don't know.

ha bond

usa

they came and terrorized him by opening up a barrage right over

He has told me since then that he is

his house with rifles.

afraid to give any information.

& Is there any other raids?

A How is that?

Q Any other raids like that going on just now?

A Why, two weeks ago a man by the name of Noe lost his horse

and a man named Carmichael lost his harness. It is a frequent

occurrence on up to now.

2 How many Rangers there?

A I don't know of any at San Benito now.

0 Don't you know that they are all over there at Brownsville

and along the river?

A They may be in Brownsville. I haven't seen any since you

were instrumental in removing Captain Stevens.

2 I understood you to say it ceased when the Rangers went there?

A It did.

noy the County

rney?

2 Well, why isn't it stopped now?

ava baon on the

A Because we haven't a sufficient Ranger force.

Why, don't you know that Captain Taylor's company is there and

only five men were discharged and all the rest of the company

incorporated in Captain Wright's and Captain Wright's company

stationed in the vicinity of Brownsville?

A I see some strangers at Brownsville, but not at San Benito.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Let's conclude this examination.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

Captain Vann

SENATOR WILLIFORD: Isn't it a fact that Captain Vann is an

upright and able officer and honorable man?

A Yes, sir, and I think his hands are tied.

bo know the

EXAMINARION BY MR. TIDWELL.

Who did you say was on the bond brought up by the County

Attorney?

ou on the rad?

A I am not positive, but Judge Wells was one of them. I will

not say who the others were. I am pretty positive that Judge

Wells was one of them.

Who else? e is ancther ene in Rwcwnsville.

A I don't recollect; I would not want to say; my recollection

is not clear enough as to who the others were, but I remember

that---I think I am positive of that.

0

Q You say the County Attorney's name was on that bond?

A No, I didn't intend to say it was.

d I say, could you say it was not?

A I could not say it was.

MR. CANALES: You tried to say my name was on it.

A No, I didn't say your name was on it. I said Mr. Dancy

brought the bond.

mner that yon believe it is

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Was Mr. Dancy the County Attorney?

A

A Yes, sür. He brought the bond. He may have been on the

bond.

I don't doubt that ther

AT

EAAMINATION BY MR. MeMILLIN.

him over

1225

0 You said a while ago that within your knowledge the Rangers

had not been used for political purposes?

A No, sir, I believe they were used to see that there was a

fair and impartial election during the primary.

2 You also volunteered the information that you were supporting

Captain Vann?

A Yes, sir. have anything to do with that. They tock him out

2 The day before you heard of this man selling whiskey and that

you thought it was to the advantage of Captain Vann?

A No, sir, I thought it was his duty as Sheriff to know the

facts and I didn't want to see any political wrong done him.

Didn't you state you thought it would be a political advantage

to him and 'phoned him to meet you on the road?

s State Library and Archives Commission

A I thought it was a matter of importance to him, yes, sir.

2 And then the Rangers went and got this fellow and took him

twenty-five miles into another justice precinct?

A Yes, sir, there is another one in Brownsville.

a

vou advised him t

atag o

2 How?

Imf

A I thought you asked if there was another precinct nearer.

Q But they took him to one farther away so he might appear be¬

fore a magistrate?

A Yes, sir; you mean a magistrate, a Justice of the Peace is

a magistrate, or the Recorder of a city court.

2 Are you aware of where the Rangers took him from there--from

the justice court at San Benito?

ht

A Only I heard afterwards where they carried him.

Q Was it in such a manner that you believe it is true?

A That I believe it is true?

2 Yes.

A Yes, I don't doubt that they took him up to Mercedes and

turned him over to the officers, because it was discussed then

that he had violated the Federal law.

2 He was not charged before the Justice of the Peace with a

violation of the Federal law?

A No, sir.

Q As a lawyer did you recognize that as the proper course to

pursue, to take him out of the county?

A I didn't have anything to do with that. They took him out

of my office after he had been charged with that complaint and

warrant served on him.

d0

Q Was it on your advice?

A I didn't give any advice; they didn't ask my advice.

2 You did advise the Justice of the Peace?

A I wrote the complaint because he asked me to do it; and I

will state further that I think it is the duty of a lawyer at

any time to assist a court when called on, and that is the only

reason I did it.

2 You didn't say, then, in your testimony that you thought it

was to the advantage of Captain Vann and that you advised him to

meet you on the road, that it was a matter of importance to him?

A That I thought it was right for him to know it, whether I said

that or not; and I still think it was treating the Sheriff and

the county officials right to give them an opportunity to enforce

an

the law.

2 Well, then, if you said it was to his advantage what did you

ir.

mean?

A If I said that, I only intended to say that it was right

that the Sheriff might know it and be given an opportunity to

go and enforce the law.

the man out of the camp.

EXAMINATION BY SENATOR WITT.

2 Why did the Justice of the Peace refuse him bond in your

presence?

A He did not refuse.

IX.

2 Why didn't he give bond?

charged with selling liquor hold

A He didn't ask to give bond.

& Why didn't the Rangers take him on to another Justice of the

Peace or to another place?

A That is only hearsay. I understood they took him and turned

him over to the soldiers, the head authorities, at Mercedes

because he had violated, as they understood it, the Federal law

in selling to soldiers; that is what the witnesses claimed.

the

ths other man lived at Riohondo, a country

EXAMINATION BY MR. MCMILLIN.

2 Weren't there soldiers nearer than to take him to Mercedes?

A I think that was their headquarters, at Mercedes.

Q Weren't their headquarters at Brownsville?

AYes, sir.

Well, wasn't that nearer?

A Well, I could not tell you why they did it.

2 Isn't it nearer from San Benito to Brownsville than from San

Benito to Mercedes?

ter.

A I think it is twenty miles to both Brownsville and Mercedes.

RECROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

2 Wasn't Colonel Slocum in command at that time?

A Yes, sir.

the

of the three men on

2 Brownsville was his headquarters?

A Yes, sir. I understood that Colonel Slocum--there was some

ruling from Washington and Colonel Slocum went up there and got

the man out of the camp.

2 But his headquarters were at Brownsville?

A Yes, sir.

MR. CANALES: That's all.

DION.

Moses.

EXAMINATION BY MR. LACKEY.

0 Nr. Hil

opping of

2 Judge, did that man that was charged with selling liquor hold

any county position?

whether or not in

A County Commissioner.

2 Were those affidavits made by soldiers or made by Mexicans?

A One man that made the affidavit was Ralph Moroney. I don't

think he is a Ranger; in fact, I think he is just a laborer,

but I think he went down and obtained the evidence, assisting

the Rangers, and the other man lived at Riohondo, a country

boy, he assisted in getting the evidence.

1218

EXAMINATION BY MR. TIDWELL.

2 Judge, did you know that a County Commissioner was a magis-

trate and that it was his duty to order the arrest of anybody--

A Who do you mean?

9.

can't understa

2 The County Commissioner.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: He is the man they were after.

atry

MR. TIDWELL: Well, he is a magistrate. (Laughter)

LONC. HILL,

recalled, testified as follows:-

Nafaret

A

MR. MOSES: We want the photograph of the three men on

horseback.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: We will have to send for the other

Stenographer; he has all the exhibits. I will send for him

right now. (To the Page:) Go to Mr. Pridemore and tell him

we want the photograph of the three men on horseback.

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

GrOSE

about it.

ByMr. Moses.

2 Mr. Hill, it was suggested a while ago that the stopping of

all that bandit trouble down there was the removal of General

Nafarette. Now, I wish you would state whether or not in

your judgment that had anything to do with the stopping of the

bandit trouble?

med Vasques and some other men

A When General Nafarette was removed and succeeded by General

Rico, nephew of Carranza, after Rico came there they had five

or six raids.

asthoy

After Rico came?

A Yes, sir. We people down there had been trying to get the

Federal authorities to follow these raiders into Mexico; that

is where the trouble was; they just ran across the river and

220

stood there and laughed at you, and what we wanted to do was to

go over there. (Laughter)

Just as well talk plainly about

this matter--we wanted to go over there.

MR. TIDWELL: Mr. Hill, I can't understand you over here.

2 Talk louder, Mr. Hill.

m

A All right. So General Funston came down in that country

on a little hunting trip; he was the man in command out of San

Antonio, and on that trip we wired to Washington and got

authority to permit Federal troops to go into Mexico.

2 Now, who was in command at Matamoras at that time?

A General Parker was in command at Brownsville and Nafarette-

not Nafarette, but General Rico was in command at Matamoras.

2 That was the successor of Nafarette?

They

A That was the successor of Nafarette. Colonel Bullard, the

Commander of the Twenty-sixth Infantry, he was the man, after

General Parker, that had active charge of the field operations.

Well, after they got this order, you know, nobody knew anything

about it. They got it lined up that if they ever came across

the river again they were going after them and they just sat

there and waited until they had a raid. They made a raid or

two up the river. This occurrence you were talking about

them shooting at Sam Robertson and a little unpleasantness out

there, there were two or three fellows came over there and

around the arroyo. A man named Vasquez and some other men

on the other side of the river informed them they were getting

ready to make a raid and they were going to cross up at Ranchito

and they got everything shaped up as much as they could whenever

they came across there to follow them across the river. So we

all got word that they had crossed--they knew when they crossed

and who was with them and where they went, and they come in to

the East of San Benito and they stopped out at an old ranch

that was called the Corteo; a man by the name of Garcia lived

there, who was killed in the Norias raid. Well, they went

out there soon next morning, eight or ten soldiers and some

other fellows, and they promptly ran into those fellows and had

a scrap and killed one man and wounded another and got all their

guns and ammunition. Some of them then went North and some

went towards the river. Now, this party was under the command

of a man by the name of Sandoval, who used to live on a ranch

down there and joined them in the raid that went on at Norias.

Captain Newman was at San Benito. At San Pedro Ranch, Billie

Wells was there with two companies. Well, as soon as this raid

occurred Bullard ordered Newman to go to the river, and with the

other information he got he struck a hot trail and followed the

bandits. Then Major Anderson was there with cavalry. They

'phoned to Brownsville and had Billie Wells to come down there,

and Bullard was getting ready to take some soldiers down there

and several of his fellows went over there and went across the

river with Newman's and Major Anderson's troops. There were

three of us went over there--Frank Pierce, a fellow by the name

of Dunman, and myself. They crossed over about eleven o'clock

with a troop of cavalry and Bullard came in there with a complete

troop of six or seven hundred men and machine guns and they

raided all over the country and went down as far as Matamoras

and around over that country all night long and next day, and

in the meantime a bunch of Americans wanted to go over there

(Laughter)--we had some scores we wanted to settle and we were

going to go in there. We were telling all the Mexicans we

were going to kill everything that walked, crept or wore hair,

and not going to leave one brick in the country. I don't

know exactly how many Mexicans they killed, but Rico got in

communication with the commanding officer and sent another

fellow and Captain Frank MeCoy, who was on General Parker's

staff, he came up there and had a confab, he and Bullard and

these Mexicans, and it was agreed then if they would come out of

Mexico there would be no more trouble, and they took it up

by wireless with General Parker and got orders from General

Parker to come out, and they came out. When they came out of

there about twenty-five or thirty men was to bring up the rear,

you know, keep them off of them, and when they came out there

was about twenty head of Mexican horses came out behind them

and swum the river and didn't have no riders on them. (Laughter)

There has never been any raid since then, because they knew that

there was not only Federal authorities who would go across there

but that a lot of civilians were going to cross the river and

raid tit for tat, and they were anxious to quit. Now, Rico

had nothing to do with stopping that; Mr. Canales' scouts had

nothing to do with it---nothing but a lot of bullets stopped it,

and that's the only thing that did stop it and the only thing

that ever will stop it.

2 Mr. Hill, do you know what has been referred to as the

Canales Scouts?

AYes, sir.

1.

0 Did you ever hear of those Scouts capturing anybody?

A What? (Laughter)

ilding and you

Q Ever capturing anybody?

hat fighting geing

A No, sir---nobody else.

firing: e

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, now, listen: Whoever that is

clapping their hands back there, do that once more and out of

the room you will go, and not come back. I am not going to

allow a demonstration of that kind. Now, there will be no

cheering and no demonstration or anything of that kind. There

are times I don't blame a man for laughing, if done properly,

and that is all. Proceed.

2 Were you in reasonably close touch with the bandit situation

and with the activity of the United States officers during that

time?

GEt

A I told you in my examination today that at the request of

Blocksom and Bullard and General Hutchings--they came to me and

wanted me to take this place and be a Special Ranger, and my

son Gordon, with the understanding that we were to be under and

work with the Federal authorities and secret service men and all

like that, and from that time on I knew everything practically

that was going on; they didn't hesitate to keep me advised of

everything.

ont ther

Q Now, Mr. Hill, I wish you would examine that picture, please,

and state what---did you get there the morning after that fight

at Norias?

to

A No, sir, I went to Norias on a special train that got there

just about dark.

2 The day of the trouble?

A The day of the trouble.

2 Just explain that?

A Well, let me give it so you will understand it. The rail¬

road officials in Kingsville and Mr. Vann 'phoned me--I had a

son in the fight and they had a 'phone in the building and you

could pick up that telephone and hear all that fighting going

on, hear the bullets hit the house and all the firing; of

course, I had a son up there in that fight and I was a little

uneasy, and Mr. Vann 'phoned me that he would be up on the train

and to take a lot of stuff, and when the train came in they were

still fighting, and when the train got in they didn't have any

engineer to run it except a hostler and at Harlingen he got cold

feet and didn't want to drive it by himself and wouldn't drive

it unless myself and Mr. Vann got on with him, which we did; so

we got up there just about dark. The Rangers that they testify

about being up there, they really got there, they had just about

ich

got to the gate, and we went up there pretty cautiously and

stopped in front of the section house and when we jumped off we

jumped off near a pile of dead Mexicans. Three or four men

were there, Joe Taylor and others, they were in the fight about

two hours. They didn't know whether they were all gone or not.

Just about the time we pulled in there was a shot fired and we

got a lantern and went around to see what damage had been done

and out West of the section house we heard somebody groaning

out there and several of us fellows went out there and there was

a wounded Mexican there that was shot twice right in here

(indicating), and he wanted to know who a certain fellow was

at a certain place; they told him who he was. Well, they

said they wanted to see him and we looked at this Mexican here

and we knew him, his name was Garcia, he lived on Brown's Corteo

ranch about five miles North of San Benito. He said he wanted

to talk to Joe Taylor and myself, and we went out and talked with

him. We wanted to know of him why he was in this raid, who

all was in it, when all the men in the raid were Mexicans from

this side of the river. He told us there was the plan of San

Diego and they were going to take all the land from the Nueces

to the Rio Grande. He said, "Now, you all will kill me, and

I want you to tell my folks that I am killed." Well, we told

him all right, we would tell them, and we did tell his family

that he had been killed and sent a lot of word to others. Well,

now, these people come in there and of course they wanted to

follow these people next morning. We carried a lot of provis¬

ions with us for two or three days. Well, when this fight came

up--the horses and pens and everything at the Norias ranch is

over on the East side of the track where the Mexicans live. A

Mexican named Coy lived there and when the fight started he

turned out all the horses and everything and hied them to the

brush and there wasn't any horses there except the horses which

had been ridden the evening before and we simply couldn't follow

them--get up soon next morning and follow them because we didn't

have the horses. So the next morning when the train came

out of Brownsville there was quite a lot of people came out

there and amongst them was a young fellow with a kodak taking

these three by seven kodaks. I saw the young fellow around

there and he was on the railroad track taking everybody in

front of the house and taking the shop and everything else

around there. Now, this picture---now, the question came

up--there was seven or eight Mexicans killed; there wasn't a

wagon there and not a hearse in sixty miles, and they wanted

to bury these Mexicans, so they got on the horses and put a

rope on and dragged them, and this fellow took these pictures;

he took about a dozen different views of Norias and the people

around there and they were on sale at Brownsville. When the

train came on about eleven o'clock we got on the train and went

to Brownsville. That's all I know about the picture. I know

these men were drug up there on horseback; I saw them drug.

Q Do you know who these men are--do you recognize them?

A I think this is Tom Tate, and I think this is Monroe Fox; I

don't know who that fellow is in the middle; I have seen him,

but don't know who he is.

Q Those were the men whose bodies are taken in that picture

who came there and attempted to assassinate the people at the

Norias ranch?

A Yes, sir, they are the fellows, because the wounded one told

me they were going on up there and take everything from there

to San Antone, they said.

225 2 Was there any M exican woman killed at the ranch by

the bandits?

A Yes, sir; they deliberately went in there and asked her

about some things just before they left--the last thing they done

they went in there and asked that Mexican woman and she wouldn't

do what they said and they deliberately stood her up and shot

her down.

And it was the next morning when hauling those two bandits

off that the picture was taken?

A Yes, sir, he set his instrument down and snapshot it.

2 Now, did you men feel in a kind, gentle disposition the next

morning?

A Well, I never did feel that way after they got to killing us,

and nobody else down there that I know anything about did.

& Were there any Americans shot in that fight?

A Yes, sir, Jim Thorp was shot all to pieces, and Frank Martin.

2 Any soldiers?

A I think there were one or two soldiers wounded, or three or

four.

Q Any of them die afterwards?

A I don't know whether they died or not.

I know Frank Martin

didn't die; he was crippled in his arm.

MR. MOSES: That's all.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

2 Lon?

A Huh?

2 Who was the guide for Lieutenant Newman in that celebrated

story you just related?

A When Newman first went no one went with him.

Q I said, who was his guide, leading him?

A You mean across the river?

No, on this side going towards the river?

A He had a Mexican with him.

2 Do you know who that Mexican was?

A I saw Pedro Larema around there; I don't know whether he

was guiding him or not.

nading on this

Wasn't it Thomas?

A Yes, Tom was sloshing around there.

2 And you were also sloshing around this side of the river.

Do you remember I talked with you on the San Pedro Ranch where

they crossed?

in; when I

A Was it in the evening?

body thera, not a

squyes. Phil Waterwall and another man put me on thie side af

A Yes, after I came out; I had just returned from across the

river and went back again that night.

Now, Lon, you never crossed the river, did you?

A Yes, I did.

van and Gor

2 Isn't it a fact that they never killed a man down there on

the other side?

A No, it is not a fact.

2 You never killed a man absolutely on the other side---our

soldiers went across just for a while and then returned and came

right up the river while negotiations were going on between

Parker and Rico about getting our men back on this side?

A Do you know when they came back on this side?

Yes.

got to

A Were you there?

nd

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I want the examination properly conducted.

Q I am asking you. It is a fact, is it not, that our soldiers

never killed anybody across the river?

ordemants there.

A It is a fact they did kill them.

0 All right. Now, they crossed back on this side?

4

A They crossed back on this side about eight or nine o'clock--

that is, they got orders to do so.

e folks

2 They crossed on the other side when?

In the meantime some

A They crossed over about eleven o'clock.

th.

Q It was about six o'clock when I saw you promenading on this

side.

ive

ad hen

A I was in a machine coming from the river.

2 No, you were standing near the river when only the soldiers

crossed?

A I came back across the river---let me explain; when I came

on this side of the river there wasn't anybody there, not a

soul. Phil Waterwall and another man put me on this side of

the river and they went back across the river. When I went

across the river I had some provisions and the soldiers had some

and I hung mine up in a tree, and I came back to cook me some¬

thing to eat and Waterwall and Ryan and Gordon came there. I

went to give Major Anderson some papers. Major Anderson came

up in a machine, and Billie Wells came out of Brownsville and

I had a talk with them and delivered my message to Major Ander-

son, and in the meantime Anderson's troops had gone across the

river, and Billie Wells was in command of the troops at San

Pedro, and a troop of cavalry came out of Brownsville under

Lieutenant Glass. When I saw you there I saw quite a lot of

other people there at the time. Then I went from there to

Brownsville and from there to Harlingen, and when I got to

Brownsville General Parker said that he was going to send

Colonel Bullard up there with reinforcements and they were

going to go down that night in automobiles and for me to go on

to Harlingen and conduct Bullard and the reinforcements there.

I went there and got there about one o'clock. About half past

two we went by San Benito and picked up the rest of them, and

there was about eighty or ninety automobiles and we got there

about half past four o'clock in the morning. There are folks

here from there, and they can tell you. In the meantime some

of the other troops, the cavalry had got there and they went on

across; during the night you could hear the fighting going on

across the river, and when we got there the machine gun outfit,

they swam the river--the mules and equipment and Captain Wilson's

machine gun outfit went across. There were several companies-

Golonel Bullard's Twenty-sixth Infantry, they went across, and

in the meantime they put up the wireless and they called up

Brownsville and had some sort of chat or talk and he told them

over the wire that General Rico had promised if they would come

out of Mexico there would be no more raids, telling Bullard of

this, and in the meantime Captain Frank MeCoy had come up there,

and when they finally came to an understanding that there would

be no more crossing of the river and he would keep the bandits

down and all that General Parker agreed to withdraw, and that's

all.

hat i

2 On the stand this afternoon you said you didn't use the

pronoun "I", but you forgot that.

A Well, I regret very much that I have to use it; I don't

take any pride in it at all. (Laughter)

2 Now, Lon, you know Sam Robertson?

AIdo, yes, sir.

1e

18t

Q Do you remember when he had the fight with bandits and they

wounded him on top of the head?

A I was not there; I heard of it.

2 And in another fight with bandits he had a wound on the heel.

You never heard of his getting one through the body?

A Through the body?

2

G YOSVAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Mr. Canales, when a member of the

s State Library and Archives Commission

A No, sir. I want to say this: Now, he is trying to reflect

on Sam Robertson; I want to say this: There never was a more

patriotic man on earth-

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: The examination is taking too wide a

range.

I believe he is cerrect

MR. CANALES: Judge Mothershead was talking about hitting

him on the heel.

ing.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, let's conclude the examination.

2 Now, when did you come to this story about taking that pic¬

ture?

state

were a gre

A When did I come to the story?

Q Yes.

A There is no story about it.

MR. MOSES: Now, Mr. Canales is a member of the House, but

he has no right to ask such insulting questions.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: It should be confined.

2 Lon, have you ever told that story about taking the picture

before this time to anybody?

A No, that's a fact. Everybody knew it. That is not a

stage picture. The people there had nothing to do with it.

Ask all these people; they were there. You can buy a dozen

other views of that.

orders?

A No, but I dond

EXAMINATION BY MR. TIDWELL.

stopped--dldn

After the Rangers left

2 Mr. Hill, you spoke about going across the river. Just

when was that? I want to know the month and year.

that.

A It was pretty late in the Fall, along say about the first

of December.

What year?

A 1915.

MR. CANALES: Wasn't it June 26th, 1916?

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Mr. Canales, when a member of the

committee asks a question wait until your turn.

A I believe Mr. Canales is right. I know we didn't have any¬

thing to eat and we got some watermelons.

Was that in 1915?

A No, I think it was in June, 1916. I believe he is correct.

Now, they had raiding after that up in Hidalgo County--the last

it

raid up there was at the Navasos crossing.

understanding between him

EXAMINATION BY MR. MeMILLIN.

Q Colonel, I believe you stated you thought Rangers were a great

factor in keeping down raids down there, did you?

A Yes, sir.

ntil 10 A. M. Wednesday

Well, now, further along in your evidence after various con¬

ferences with General Parker you moved them back from the river.

If they were so valuable, why did you move them back?

A Well, when military officers tell you a thing it is not

becoming in a man to ask them their reasons for it. (Laughter)

2 You were not a military officer?

A I was a Ranger and he peremptorily told us to keep away from

the river front.

2 You didn't bear a commission from the United States Government,

so you were not under General Parker's orders?

A No, but I done what they told me to do.

2 After the Rangers left the raids all stopped--didn't you say

the raids stopped after you moved the Rangers?

A No, sir, I didn't intend to convey any such idea as that. Now,

take the last raid--

2 Well, have there been any raids since the Rangers were moved

back from the river?

A Oh, yes, sir.

2 But there haven't been any Rangers on the river since then? I

want the facts.

A I don't know why General Parker didn't want the Rangers to

OSE

go on the river.

Why?

A I don't know. I wasn't going to ask him. He just told

them he didn't want them to go, and I never asked him why.

That is what he wanted, and they didn't go on the river, and

I expect you can find out from General Hutchings; it was some

understanding between him and Hutchings.

MR. MeMILLIN: That's all.

At 10 P. M. the Committee adjourned

until 10 A. M. Wednesday,

February 12, 1919.

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 1919. — 10 A. M.

CAPTAIN J. H. ROGERS,

having previously been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

DIRECT EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Knight.

2 Captain Rogers, you live in San Antonio?

A I live here, sir; this is my home.

2 What official position do you hold?

A United States Marshal for the Western District of Texas.

2 And you are a resident of Austin?

A Yes, sir; my headquarters office is here.

Q How long have you resided here in Austin?

A About twelve years.

Q How long have you been United States Marshal?

A About six years.

2 Were you ever connected with the Ranger service, Captain?

A I was.

Q How long were you connected with the Ranger service?

A About twenty-eight years and a half.

Q You began as a private, did you?

A Yes, sir.

2 You were a Captain of Rangers how many years?

A Nineteen years, approximately.

Q You during that time and now as United States Marshal have had

abundant opportonity to know the conditions along the border country?

A Yes, sir, I ought to know them.

2 Captain, give the Committee your views as to the indispensible

necessity for the Ranger service in enforcing law and order along

the frontier country?

A Well, sir, I think it is still needed, especially

1206

since conditions growing out of the war, and so on, and immed¬

iately before the war it was not so bad, but perhaps there has

never been a time since it was organized—

SENATOR WILLIFORD: We don't think this Committee has

requested that.

MR. KNIGHT: I quite agree with you. You have been

familiar with the organization of the Rangers for the last

twenty-eight years: Do you consider the general average of the

men engaged in the service now up to the standard of former

years?

A Well, I will tell you, I haven't kept in very close

touch with them for the last six years since I have been in

the Marshal's office.

2 All right. Now, Captain, in the discharge of your

duties as U. S. Marshal you have had more or less contact with

Captain Hanson and other members of the organization?

A Yes, sir, I have met him a few times.

Did you know Captain Hanson while you were a Ranger?

A Yes, sir.

2 How long have you known Captain Hanson?

A I expect I have known him twenty years or more.

2 He was one of your predecessors in your present office?

A In a different district, the Southern District.

2 Oh, yes; a different district.

2 Well, predicated on your observation and knowledge

growing from your association and contact with him, as well as

what you have heard others say, tell the committee what your

opinion is of Captain Hanson as a faithful, fearless officer,

and as a conscientious, earnest citizen and enforcer of the law.

A Well, now, gentlemen, I will tell you at the outset I

would prefer not to go into the personalities of these men. Captain

Hanson is my personal friend and I should hesitate to say anything

against him if I knew anything against him, and I had rather

not answer the question, although, of course I am sworn, and—

2 I am going to ask you about a number of the captains?

A I would rather leave that out; of course, if you

absolutely force me I would tell the truth. That does not mean

that I know anything definite against Captain Hanson but I would

rather not enter into personalities for different reasons, but

one is this,- I have a river front here of sx or seven hundred

miles and these boys help me and cooperate with me; they are my

personal friends, and even if they were not my personal friends

they cooperate with me and I want to be friendly with the Rangers.

I don't want this Committee to consider this as against Captain

Hanson, but I would rather not go into it unless you have me to

do it.

Q Of course,- all right. We will not insist. The Canales'

bill,- are you familiar with its provisions?

A I have read it.

Q It provides, one thing, placing the force under bond—

A The bond feature particularly attracted my attention.

What do you think of that in the light of your broad and

long experience,- what effect would it have, putting these men

under bond,- how would it affect their effeciency?

A I think it would destroy their efficiency very largely

if it almost did not result in destroying the force.

Do you think there are too many Rangers in the employ

of the State at this time?

Hesd er it m

A How many have you?

nto

Q I don'tknow. About one hundred and eight.

A Well, I doubt if there is, oweing to conditions on the

border at this time.

organis

Captain, do you think that the efficiency of the service

would be improved by paying an adequate compensation to the men,

1205 giving them an increased salary?

ssion

A Naturally, I do, yes.

2 Do you think, or not, that the— Of course we all recog¬

nize that the force is not perfect, that every man in it is not

perfect, or any of them for that matter—

A And never have been.

ana

Q Never have been since you have known them?

A No, sir.

2 Do you think, do you not think that to give power to

the captains to select their m men and place their organization

under a stronger, military discipline with the Adjutant Generaly

only at the head that it would improve matters, whether or not it

would go far toward improving the service?

A Yes, sir, I do. I have in mind a plan—

Q All right, give the Committee your idea.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: We will be glad to have it.

A I have thought for perhaps fifteen years, or more, several

years before I left the service, that we had too much divided

authority in the Ranger business. We had too many heads, little

heads, if I may refer to a captain as a little head,- I was one

of them,- instead of having the power centralized.

That's it.

A I have thought for a number of years, several years

before I left the service, that this force ought to be reorganized

and that we ought to have one Ranger company instead of three

or four, when I was in, and I guess there are a good many more

now, and that there should be one captain at the head of it who

ought to be a thoroughly good man and to have commissioned officers

under him, such as first and second lieutenants, and non-commissioned

officers, such as sergeants, and, perhaps, on down to corporals.

Then,intead of having a half dozen organizations, the power would

be centralized, and there should be a big man chosen for the head

of it. Let him select all his men and make him responsible

for them; even then he might get hold of a disorderly or bad

man but he would find it out quickly and fire him out. Now, this

safeguard could be put in, the commissioned officers appointed

under the generalissimo, or head man or captain, would be brought

forward to be commissioned, as a first or second lieutenant, and

the Adjutant General would concur in them or else they would be

dropped altogether. The men that the Adjutant General would

endorse would be put up to the Governor and if the Governor com¬

missioned him it would be all right. If not, they would have to

bring forward another, and keep nominating men until, to get the

lieutenant the captain, the Adjutant General and the Governor would

have to concur on them.

2 Well,that is ekactly the idea I had with regard to

separate companies. Your idea of it is one company separated or

divided into squads and not separate companies?

A And providing, yes, sir, for good strong, faithful men.

Q And it would be the captain's duty to select the men

and submit their names for approval to the Adjutant General and

if he should concur then to the Governor?

A I have reference to the commissioned officers.

2 Commissioned officers, yes. The captain ought to be

allowed to appoint the sergeant?

A I mean that the commissioned officers should be sub¬

ject to approval.

2 And the non-commissioned officers would not?

A Well, they could be. The captain would have general

supervision of the field and have his desk in the Adjutant Gener¬

al's office and he would be in close touch with the Adjutant

General and the Governor, and the organization would be divided

intt different squads of men whoch would correspond to the dif¬

ferent companies, with the only difference, that they would be

under one head.

Everything would be reported back to him and he would keep in

close touch with the situation and would remain here except when

the work was more serious and needed his personal attention and

observation, when he would go himself on the ground.

Isn'tit practically impossible for the Adjutant General

under the present system to keep in close touch with the organi¬

zation?

A Yes, sir, I should think, so,-first-hand touch.

Q Now, Captain, under some sort of arrangement, as sug¬

gested by you, that would accomplish the feature sought to be

accomplished by the bonding of the men---the objectionable

features of the organization would be removed and would be

improved?

A I certainly think so, if you got the right man as captair

All right. Now, Captain, there has been a considerable

exodus along the frontier of Mexico since 1914-15,- you are

acquainted with that situation, are you not?

A I have heard a good deal about it but most of it is in

the other district, not mine, down on the lower Rio Grande.

2 Your jurisdiction is not down there?

A Mine is from Dimmit County to El Paso.

MR. KNIGHT: There is one more matter about which I wish to

ask the Captain and I will ask the Committe to allow me to ask the

question.

THE CHAIRMAN: Sure, go ahead.

MR. KNIGHT: Mr. Moses is familiar with this matter and I

will ask the Committee for Mr. Mose to ask the question.

MR. MOSES: G. Captain, without going into details, there is

some testimony here with regard to one of the Rangers killing a

man: in fact, he is under indictment in court, the indictment

having been lately found, and it was claimed by the Ranger that

he went to this party in the night, or about daylight and he was

asleep on a cot and that the cot was close to him; that the Mexi¬

can who was later killed, grabbed the gun of the Ranger, and it

is thought that that might be unreasonable way for one attempting

to make an arrest: Now, I will ask you if it is not true that

you know of instances where, either through inadvertence or care¬

lessness, careful officers have gotten into that position many

times under your personal knowledge or observation?

MR. CANALES: That is absolutely improper cross-examination

of the witness. The inexcusable act of one officer does not justi¬

fy that of another.

MR. MOSES: I am not justifying the killing.

MR. CANALES: Because one officer does wrong does not make

it all right for another officer doing the same thing.

THE CHAIRMAN: I think the range that the testimony has

taken with regard to these matters has been very broad, and we

will admit the testimony.

ANS.- That sometimes occurs, Mr. Moses. It occurred twice

when I was in command of Rangers in my company, and I thought

that I had good, careful men, and I know of two mistakes in the

nineteen years that I was captain, if not longer. One while I was

sergeant, I suppose over a period of twenty years, I know of two

mistakes happening,- not exactly as you related but mistaken iill-

ings.

Q I am not talking necessarily of killing, but in your

experience, Captain, did you ever, through inadvertance, or what¬

ever the reason was, ever get yourself in a position where you were

disarmed, or anything of that sort?

A No, sir.

2 Have you ever heard of that as to any other Kanger?

A Yes, I have heard of a case or two or that kind.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: I think that is going most too far.

MR. MOSES: That is all.

EXAMINED BY MR. CANALES.

2 You mean that the men who make those mistakes are justified

in doing it,- you think they do right?

A It is very regretful when mistakes are made: I mean to

say the men are trying to do right. Of course, the circumstances

surrounding each individual case would have much to do with

that.

Captain, do you think that a man who is armed by law

with a Winchester and a pistol and a great big belt full of

cartridges, going to an unarmed man sleeping on a cot, and kills

that unarmed man, do you think that man should be trusted to re¬

main-

MR. MOSES: We object to that. If counsel is going to ask

that question he should state the whole testimong.

MR. CANALES: John Edds says he was armed with a gun and a

Winchester and had hisregular cartridge belt and that within hail¬

ing distance were two other Rangers equally armed like himself,

that he went to the man sleeping on the cot at the time, and he

got close enough for that man, when he woke up, to grab the gun.

Now, he says when the man was so near him he woke him up and he

sat down on the cot, and he grabbed the gun, which was the natural

thing,- pointing the gun at him,- the man grabbed the gun, and then

he thought that the man was going to take the gun away from him

and he shot him?

MR. MOSES: That is not the testimony. Counsel is not stating

all of it.

THE CHAIRMAN: That is substantially his statement, Judge.

MR. MOSES: That is a hypothetical question and all the facts

should be stated. Mr. Edds testified that they scuffled and contin¬

ued to scuffle--

MR. CANALES: I have not finished my question.

2

MR. MOSES: That they continued to scuffle, and scuffled until

they had backed off several feet, both of them holding the gun, and

finally the gun was discharged and the man was killed, still holding

MR. CANALES: All right, Captain. He says then that the

Mexican grabbed hold of the gun and that he held on tight to the

gun and they scuffled and he thought the Mexican was going

to take the gun away from him because he was a bigger man than he

was, and then he shot him in khe leg; prior thereto, before this

man was killed, the other Rangers were within hailing distance;

now, I will ask you if a man who is thus armed and thus surrounded

by assistance, is not able to take care of himself, do you believe

that such a man should be kept on the Ranger force?

A Oh, well, I don't know about that.

MR. TIDWELL: He made one other statement that you left out.

He stated that there was another man sleeping there with him and

he also stated that the man with whom he was wrastling was a

larger man.

MR. CANALES: He stated there was another man there but he

never woke up until after the gun was fired. The other man didn't

have anything to do with it. The only question is, that a killing

under these circumstances, do you think that such a man is a

proper officer and to be in the service and to be entrusted with

the lives and liberties of the citizens?

A I think, in considering whether he should remain in

the service that you should take into consideration his former

record as to whether he was a sober, good man who might be able

to take care of himself under one situation and would not in

another. You cannot fix a set rule as to how every man would act

under a sertain case. An officer should use only so much force

as is necessary to protect himself, and no more, but just how

far that should extend is hard to tell from his viewpoint.

2 All right,- his former record; Just previous to this

a few months before the case of a Mexican who was arrested at a

ranch-

THE CHAIRMAN: I think this examination is taking a scope

not contemplated by the Committee.

MR. CANALES: The only way to contradict their testimony is

by a hypothetical question. I objected to their question. I

thought it was absolutely improper,the question Mr. Moses asked.

I can only contradict that by asking a hypothetical question,

In reply to the hypothetical question that came from the other side

and would like to have that privilege, but if the Committee will

not allow me, all right.

THE CHAIRMAN: The Committee is not assuming any attitude of

that kind but we think this examination has gone far enough on

that line.

MR. CANALES: Do you think that men, Rangers who take a

prisoner out of jail and the prisoner was in their custody when

last seen, and that the prisoner afterwards turns out to be found

dead on the road where these Kangers have passed, with three

bullet holes in their head, and the Rangers never explain any¬

thing,- do you think thoseRangers ought to remain in this Ranger

service?

MR. MOSES: We think this is a matter for the Committee to

pass upon. There is a conclusion as to whether the evidence will

sustain that or not.

THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is a question for the Committee.

MR. MOSES: We are not here defending any Rangers for

murdering any prisoners, but we think it is improper to ask any

witness a question of this character-

MR. CANALES: I didn't know you would be so touchy on the

question. I understood that was what you and Judge Knight were

here paid for.

THE CHAIRMAN: There is no evidence here that counsel is

paid, and don't inject that,-

MR. CANALES: They are here defending these men and these

men are charged with having committed these acts and I think I

should be entitled to ask the question.

THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is a question for the determ¬

ination of the Committee.

MR. CANALES: All right.

2 (By Mr Canales) You were nineteen years in the ser¬

vice, Captain?

A Yes, sir.

2 You were stationed at Alice?

A Yes, sir, I have been stationed at Alice.

2 You used to travel the old Alice road that passes by

my father's ranch?

A Yes, sir.

2 And you knew my father, brothers and myself?

A Yes, sir.

Now, Captain, at that time, that you were in the

service, Captain Hughes was also a captain?.

A Yes, sir.

2 And Captain Brooks?

A les, sir.

2 Did you ever hear of any Captain then or any of the

other men taking a man out of jail or in their possession

and after having them in their possession, shooting them?

A Absolutely not.Such conduct is a blot on the history

of this State, such a thing as that.

2 That's true. Now, Captain, you are U. S. Marshal?.

2 You can arrest a man anywhere in your district or

anywhere in the State of Texas'

A As U. S. Marshal?

2 Yes, for violations of Federal matters?

A Well, I am supposed to have jurisdiction only in my

district.

2 But you can serve process anywhere in the State and

2

nothing to prevent you?

sgood

A No, sir.

Well, within your district? Your district contains

how many counties?

A Seventy-two or three.

2 You can serve process in any one of them?

A Yes, sir.

C And your deputies also can?

A Yes, sir.

Are you under bond?

A Yes, sir, under a big bond.

Q Do you ever hesitate to arrest any man in any county

because of the fact that you have given bond?

A Do I hestitate?

2 Tes.

A Yes, it makes me more careful.

2 More careful?

A Yes, sir; have to be very careful.

2 Now, do you believe when a condition exists where the

constabulary of a State kills prisoners in their possession,

don't you think, at least some restriction should be made to

safeguard the lives of innocent men?

A Such conditions ought not to be permitted to continue

by any manner of means. It may be that bonded Rangers would be

better than none but I think it would hamper their efficiency

very much. I think they could be reformed the way I have said.

2 I most thoroughly agree with you, because they have

six companies now and that is the reason my bill calls for four

and I agree with you as to one company. The bill provides for

four companies in time of peace and for a certain number, say

five or six in time of emergency, and the Governor is the judge

of that emergency and the company may be increased to whatever

number the Governor may see fit.

You think that is a good provision to make?

A Ithink it is all right, so far as the number of men,

but the bonding business is the thing.

When the State is quiet and there is no disturbance or

anything, nothing much to do, don't you think they should automat¬

ically reduce the maximum number?

A Yes, sir.

And when an emergency exists the number could be in¬

stantly increased.

A Ithink that is all right.

Q Now, another feature of the bill provides for high

class men, God fearing, high class men to enforce the law: You

think that is not an unreasonable provision?

A Yes.

That it is unreasonable?

A What do you mean by God fearing men? You mean that every

man on the force should be a Christian man?

2 No; I mean that every man should be of good character,

of good moral character and of good habits?

A Yes, that is all right.

The third provision of the bill provides for higher

pay?

A Yes, I approve of that.

2 The fourth provision is whenever they arrest a man

they should treat him like any other peace officer?

A Yes.

Should arrest him and not abuse him?

A It ought not to be necessary to put that in; that should

be a foregone conclusion.

Q I agree with you but when the things exist they should

be given attention?

A Yes.

Q And the other feature of the bill is with reference to

the bond. Now you say it will handicap the force, and the sug¬

hestion you have made is that the Captain should give bond---

A No.

The suggestion has been made that the captain should

give bond and select his men, make the captain responsible for the

actions of his men exactly the the sheriff is responsible for the

acts of his deputies and like the Marshal is responsible for the

acts of his deputies,- what do you think about that?

A I don't think either one would work; I don't think you

could get a captain who had any property himself to gommaned a

company of Rangers and give bond for their conduct, touching every

man in every given case.

Captain, have you ever heard of the Fennsylvania State

Police?

A Yes, I understand they were patterned after our Ranger

force here.

Q Do you know they are under bond?

A No, I don't know it.

They do very efficient work there; don't you think all

this is an imaginary thing?

A Imaginary?

Q Imaginary on the question of a bond handicapping the

force?

A No, sir, I don't think so.

Do you think that a man who is unjustly killed in his

own place of business by State Rangers, leaving a widow and children,

that that man should have no redress at all against the State? Don't

you think that the widow and children should have some right?

A Yes, it would be very unfortunate indeed. I would be

willing to contribute to such a case. I think it would hurt the

force to bond it.

2 You think it would be better to leave to charity

people under such circumstances than to make special regulations

to prevent matters of that kind?

A I don't know as to the charfty. Possible we hope that

nothing like that will occur.

2 Yes, I hope so, but it has occurred, and that is the

trouble. We have a situation, a condition confronting us and not a

theory, and we are trying to correct the condition. Don't you

believe that persons who are mistreated or killed by State Rangers

--that their relatives should have some manner of redress?

A It would be very fortunate if they did have and in

some kind of a case like that but a case like that might never

occur but once in twenty or thirty years and to tie up the whole

machinery of the State government, the Ranger force, to take care

of something that might never happen—

You say it occurs maybe once in twenty years. Now when

these things happen once a month or twice a month, don't you

think it time to undertake to regulate it?

A Yes, I certainly think so, and if it can't be done any

other way, why to abolish the force.

2 I thank you very much, Captain.

EXAMINED BY MR. KNIGHT.

2 Do you know, Captain, during your long experience in

and around the border, of any corrupt practice by the Rangers

that is suggested by the vapprous interrogatories of counsel?

A No, I do not. I have heard a good deal of complaint about

his section down there,- illegal killings.

2 Now Mr. Canales wants to know-- there is a good deal of

imagination in his testimony: I will ask you to state whether or

not it is not possible that Mr. Canales himself is laboring under

an obsession or halmcination regarding the extravagant abuses by

the Rangers down there?

THE CHAIRMAN: I think that is hardly a proper question.

State Li

A I have known Mr Canales a long time-

Q I will ask you to state--- He speaks of widows and

orphans left without support: I will ask you to state if it

is not true, in your opinion, that if the Ranger force had been

crippled or had been abolished as Mr. Canales desires-

MR. CANALES: I challenge that remark. That is absolutely

a misstatement of the facts.

Mr. Knight: Where is that letter? Didn't you write a

letter advising their abolition?

MR. CANALES: No, sir.

MR. KNIGHT: General, where is that letter? Help me find

that letter.

THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Knight.

el

MR. KNIGHT: I might ascall his hand right now. Is that a

copy of a letter you wrote?

MR. CANALES: I am not on the stand. I can go on the stand.

THE CHAIRMAN: This proceeding, gentlemen, is very irre¬

gular. As lawyers, you are bound to recognize that.

MR. KNIGHT: I want to show this, and we are going to show

that Mr. Canales' proposition, or the judgment of this defense is,

to destroy absolutely the efficiency of this force, even to the

extent of its abolition.

MR. TIDWELL: Mr. Knight, pardon me. You can put him on the

stand later.

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, that is correct.

2 Now, I will ask you to state, during the troublous times

of the last four years on the border, if we had had no Ranger force

or anything to take its place of a similar character, if the widows

and orphans would not have been infinitely greater along the border

than they are with the Rangers, and--

A Well, it looked pretty bad down there, with those raids.

If, as a matter of fact, the bandits across the river

learns from this side of the river, not only from alien sympathizers

but native sympathizer s, the fact that oweing to conditions on

this side--- they are told that this heroic band, who from time

immemorial, has defendant the frontier, has been placed under

the anethema of the people of Texas to the extent that it has been

handicapped by a bond-

SENATOR WILLIFORD: Are you asking a question?

MR. KNIGHT: Yes, Judge. Don't you understand that? I thought

you were a lawyer.

----I will ask you to state whether or not such inform¬

ation, surrepticiously conveyed over there would not have a

tendency to reintensify the smouldering hatred in the breasts of

those bandits against the people on this side of the river?

MR. CANALES: That kind of an examination of the witness

is argumentative and absolutely improper in this case.

THE CHAIRMAN: I think, Judge, that kind of an examination

is improper and is invading the province of the Committee.

MR. KNIGHT: I yield to the Committee, with the consciousness

of the fact that the Committee themselves, I believe that the

Committee themselves have caught the merit of my suggestion.

THE CHAIRMAN: Gentlemen, we must limit this examination.

If I had nothing else to do personally I would like to spend the

summer on it.

MR. KNIGHT: That is all, Captain.

MR. TIDWELL: Captain, Just a moment. How many deputies

have you? If I may ask this question.

A It is perfectly all right.

2 How many deputies have you in your office and under

you?

A In the office work and field I have ten or eleven.

Q Do you put all of your deputies under bond?

A Yes, sir.

2 All of them?

A Yes, sir, even my stenographers.

Q Is that a matter you do yourself or do the Federal

reguations require you to do that?

A Well, the civil service regulations have forded me to

do it. I have to bond any one who is not in the civil service.

Persons not in the civil service have to be bonded.

Q And your deputies are under civil service regulations?

A Not now; two or three of my office men were when I

took charge, but since I have been in the office they have been

replaced by men not in the civil service and those men must be

put under bond.

By the Federal regulations?

A Yes, sir; and I would do it anyhow.

ecccecetece

MR. J. D. JACKSON,

having first been duly sworn, testified before the Joint Com-

mittee, as follows:-

EXAMINED BY MR. KNIGHT:

2 Captain, where do you reside?

A Alpine, Brewster County, Texas.

Q How long have you lived there?

A Thirty-two years.

What is your business or profession?

A Cattleman- Excuse me, don't call me Captain; I am not a

Captain.

Q Have you ever filled any position in the Cattle Raisers Asso¬

ciation?

A Yes, sir.

Awseclati

2 What position?

A President.

0 How many years were you President of the Texas Cattle Raisers

Association?

A Two years and three months.

What years were they?

A In 1914, 1915 and 1916.

Q I will ask you to state whether or not you ever served on the

ranger force?

A Yes, sir.

2 When and how long?

A In 1881, I don't remember just how long, but something like a

year.

Q I will ask you to state how long you have been in the border

country, as a rancher, as a cattleman and as a citizen?

A Well, I have been on the border, the western border and the

southern border, for forty years.

2 Now, Captain, I will ask you to state if as President of the

Cattle Raisers Association-- your ranches are where?

A In Brewster County.

C Way up the river from the Brownsville country?

A Yes, eighty miles from the river.

Q And a great deal further from Brownville?

A Oh, yes.

Q Now I will ask you if as President of the Cattle Raisers

Association, and as a ranchman, having experience with raids

of bandits across the river, you have had occasion to come in

frequent contact with the rangers and observe the work of the

ranger force up there?

A Yes, sir; my inspectors work with them all the time.

251

nmission

State Library

and Archives C

C How many inspectors did you have in your employ as President

of the Cattle Raisers Association?

A About fifty.

erdoee

0 State whether or not during that time the ranger service co¬

operated efficiently with the officers of the law and your

inspectors?

A Yes, sir; all the time, vorked together-- one of my inspectors

was shot once, being with a ranger.

0 Mr. Jackson, you are down in Colonel Langhorne's section of

the country?

A Yes, sir; what is known as the Big Bend district.

I will ask you to state whether or not about Christmas Eve,

1917, tell the jury what the conditions were at that time and

what the citizens did, if anything, with reference to organ¬

izing and planning for their protection?

A Well, on Christmas day the ranch of Mr. Bright was raided, his

horses were taken, they robbed his store and killed three mem;

hung one man there in the store and cut his throat, and the

rangers and soldiers got out there about the time they left

and ran them over a big rim rock, and they followed and killed

all but about one of them, I think. I think you have referene

to a meeting that was held in Marfa on December 30, 1917--

2 Yes?

A I was at that meeting.

Take this telegram and see whether that expresses the intense

desire fr relief and assistance on the part of the people out

there that day, and who are these telegrams addressed to?

A This is to General Harley, and these are the resolutions-

the first is a resolution calling for rangers and the second

is a resolution asking for the organization of National Cal var y

Guards-- I wrote both of these messages.

2 State whether or not the second message resulted in increasing

the National Guard?

A I can't say-- the Governor sent this message to the War Depart-

ment, and just after that time the National Guard movement was

started; I think that was the first movement.

2 Just read this telegram to the Committee?

A There were about two hundred citizens there, the best citi¬

zens of our country, most of the Sheriffs and leading cattlemen

of fiwe counties were assembled at that meeting.

Q You were very much aroused and alarmed?

A Yes.

2 Read that telegram to the Adjutant General?

A I am not a very good reader, you read it.

„December 31, Alpine, Texas. General Jim Harley, Austin,

Texas. We, the undersigned citizens of Presidio, Brewster,

Culberson, Hudspeth, Pecos and Jeff Davis counties, assembled

in mass meeting and which was called by Cob. George T. Lang¬

horne, for the purpose of organizing the citizens of the Big

Bend patrol district for their protection against bandits

and other lawless people respectfully request and recommend

that you increase the ranger service one hundred more men in

the Big Bend district, these men to be selected from the abowe

named counties to assist the military forces in protecting our

lives and property. J. B. Gillette, Chairman of the Committee

and two hundred others." Who was Col. Langhorne?

A He was the Colonel in charge of 1700 troops located along

the border, the Rio Grande, for the protection of the border

country.

Q He had been struggling with this situation for how long?

A Had probably been there for a year.

2 This meeting was called at his instance and the citizens?

A Well, yes. That resolution was passed at that meeting, and

the motion was made to ask for three hundred rangers, and at

my suggestion it was withdrawn and amended to ask for one hun¬

dred-- I told them there was no use to ask for three hundred,

that there were not that many in the service, and in that meet-

ing it was stated by some that one rangers was worth ten or

fifteen soldiers, and some even went as high as a hundred Unit ed

States troops, one ranger to one hundred-- I don't suppose Col.

Lamghorne was there at that time, but he afterwards told me

that om ranger was worth ten of his troops because they knew

the country and the locality, and were good for scouts.

Q Now, Mr. Jackson, I will get pou to state whether or not during

the last three or four years in your section of the country

there has been any criticism of the efficiency of the ranger

system, or of the personal conduct of its individual members?

A Well, I guess there was a little talk about those fifteen

Mexicans who were killed in Presidio County-- Capt. Fox.

Q I intended eliminating that-- that has been gone into-- outside

of that discussion?

A No, sir; that was all.

2 Now, on this same date you sent this wire to General Harley--

"Alpine, Texas, December 31, 1917. General Jim Harley, Austn,

Texas. We, the undersigned citizens of Presidio, Brewster,

Culberson, Hudspeth, Pecos and Jeff Davis counties, assembled

in mass meeting and which was called by Col. George T. Langhor ne

for the purpose or organizing the citizens of the Big Bend pat rol

district for their protection against bandits and other lawless

people, respectfully request and recommend that you ask the War

Department to authorize you to organize a regiment of cavalry

as part of the Texas quota, such cavalry regiment to be com¬

posed of men who are accustomed to our rough country and border

conditions, men knowing practical ly every cow trail, springs,

and water hole, and who know many of the border Mexicans by rame

and by äght. We appreciate the great work of Col. Langhorne

and his brave men and realize that in the recent raids they

have given the Mexicans the greatest chastizement in the history

of the border trouble. On account of there being no food sup¬

plies in Mexico, these raids will be made on every store, mining

camp and ranch near the Rio Grande which are not closely guard-

ed. The need of more aid for the protection of our property

right and the anxiety we have for our wives and children prompt

us make this request. We realize that something must be done

at once. J. D. Jackson, Committee Chairman and two hundred

others."

MR. CANALES: I think those telegrams are-- this telegram, is

absolutely irrelevant to any of the issues in this case, as we

have atready passed on the question of the necessity of ran¬

gers, I have agreed that they were needed, and this is simply

incumbering the record with immaterial issues.

THE CHAIRMAN: It is already in-

MR. KNIGHT: Q. Had the zanger force been adequate at that time,

would these people have sought to have it increased?

A I think not; no, sir.

2 Now then, you say that country-- there were serious raids

from the other side into the Big Bend country, for the last

three or four years?

A Yes, sir.

2 When was it stopped and how was it stopped?

A Well, since the killing of those fifteen men-- since Colonel

Langhorne and his men went after the bandits and Mexicans and

ran them across the river and killed about twenty-five and

burned up a town, there have not been any more raids. I don't

know whether that stopped it or not, and sixteen special ran¬

gers were appointed and patterned at different places. These

men were well acquainted with Mexicans, and talked to them and

told the Mexicans to talk to the people across the river and

1255

eliminate any trouble, if they could. I don't know what the

cause is, but since then there have been no raids.

2 They killed about twenty-five and burned a town when Colonel

Langhorne followed them across the river?

A Yes, sir.

C And then a dozen or more special rangers were appointed down

there on this side?

A Yes, sir.

Q And since that time there have been no further raids?

A No, sir.

2 Now, Mr. Jackson, you remeber the days when you were a ranger,

back in 1881 or 2, did any trouble ever occur-- did rangers

ever get into trouble in those days?

A Yes, sir; there was trouble in those days. A circumstance

happened up at Colorado City-- in those days everybody wore

pistols--

That was the frontier then like your country is the frontier

now?

A Yes, that was during the building of the T.P. road through that

country.

SEN. WILLIFORD: Judge, I don't see that we ought to lose time

on something thrity years ago.

MR. KNIGHT: The question is, whether owing to mistakes or un¬

fortunate circumstances necessarily attendant upon the admin¬

istration of the law by those people-- I want to show that such

things have always existed, and--

A Well, Senator, I would have to explain in detail-- twenty-five

or thirty cow boys would come to town and shoot up the bwn,

and the sheriff of the county, a new county just organized,

couldn't do anything, and there were some rangers camped at

the springs twenty-five miles from Colorado City, and eight

of the boys went in there one time and a man named Peterson,

a big comm man in that country at that time, he was with the

cowboys shooting up the town, and one of the rangers arrested

him and put him in jail-- took him while he was drunk and

locked him in a box car and kept him all night, and the next

morning gave him his pistol and told him to go behave himself.

This man resented that and said he was going to kill the ran¬

ger, and he came back in the next few nights and was walking

along with another man and met the ranger and pulled out the

other man's gun and fired at the ranger-- fired it off-- he

knew the rangers were there watching him, and three of the

rangers ran up, amd as he jerked his pistol they shot him

all to pieces. They were tried for this and there was a good

deal of animosity aroused between the rangers and that man's

friends.

SEN. WILLIFORD: That was in 1880?

A In 1881.

SEN. WILLIFORD: I don't think that would throw any light on

any matters here.

MR. KNIGHT: In other words, this isn't the first local feud

where the rangers were sought as a victim, within your knowl¬

edge?

A“ No, sir; those boys were tried and acquitted.

2 Now, Mr. Jackson, in your opinion, what would be the effect of

placing the ranger force under bond as contemplated by the

Canales bill?

A Well, in my opinion, I think it would do the very thing that

it seems the bill is seeking to do-- in the first place, if

you put the rangers under bond, there are plenty of men able to

make their bond and plenty of men that will do it, no matter

whether it be for political reasons or for protection. You

take a big cow man and let him go on their bonds, and he would

do it, the whole ranger force would then be under obligations

to those on their bonds-- it seems to me that it is putting

the ranger force under obligations to anybody that is able

and wants to go on their bond.

Q Now, in that connection, do you believe that any responsible.

man who did not have a sinister purpose, for his own interest,

would go on their bond?

A Probably not-- a strange man probably would not.

2 Taking the other horn of the dilema, don't you think that the

bonding feature would absolutely cripple the system?

A Yes, sir; I don't think there is any question about that.

That's all.

EXAMINED BY MR. CANALES:

2 You are the President of the State Cattle Raisers Association?

A I was-- not now.

What position do you hold with it now?

A I am Honorary Vice President.

2 You are acquainted with the members of the organization in

Texas?

A Yes, sir; I know a good many.

2 Is Lon C. Hill a member of that organization?

A I can't say without looking at the books.

2 You know Lon?

A Yes.

Ever see him at any of the meetings of the association?

A Yes--

2 Is his son a member?

A I don't know.

Q Is Mr. Will Taylor a member?

A I can't say because I haven't looked at the books in five

years.

2 Well, you are Vice-President now?

A Honorary Vice-President.

2 You know Tom Tate?

A

No, sir; I don't know him.

Q Is he a member of the organization?

A

I don't know.

Q How many inspectors have you got?

A

About fifty.

2

And thirty of them are special rangers?

A Yes, some of them are special rangers.

2

Are those inspectors under bond?

A

No, sir.

2

The inspectors are not under bond at all?

A

No, sir.

' How many members of the Cattle Raisers Association in Texas?

A

There are about four thousand; they are not all from Texas--

the majority are from Texas-- there are more than four thousand.

6

I will ask you whether-- you say you were a ranger when?

A

In 1881.

Q And you were a ranger for how long?

A

I think about a year.

2

Where do you live now?

A

Alpine, Brewster County, Texas, about 80 miles from the bor-

der, from the Rio Grande.

Q That's all.

MR. C. L. BRENIMAN,

having been first duly sworn, testified before the Join Commit-

tee, as follows:-

2

1259

EXAMINED BY MR. KNIGHT:

What is your name?

A C. L. Breniman.

2

Where do you reside, Mr. Breniman?

A

San Antonio.

2

What is your occupation?

A

I am in charge of the Buerau of Investigation, United States

Department of Justice, for Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.

a

That is your official position at this time?

A

Yes, sir.

2

How long have you filled that position?

A

I have been in the service of this country since 1912, and have

been in charge of things since November, 1917.

2

Your jurisdiction covers the territory in New Mexico, Arizona

and Texas?

A

Yes, sir.

2

In the discharge of your duties do you or not come in frequert

contact with Capt. W. M. Hanson?

A

Yes, sir.

2

You know Capt. Hanson?

A

Yes, sir.

2

State if you have ever worked in connection with him since

you have known him, before and after his entering the ranger

service-- how long had you known him before he entered the

ranger service?

A

I have known Captain only four or five years, I believe.

2

Well, answer the question--

A

I used to frequently call on him before the Declaration of War

with refererce to matters we had under investigation along the

border, knowing that he had an intimate knowledge of conditions

in Mexico and on this side of the border, and I frequently

would interview him relative to some matter under investiga¬

tion. After the Declaration of War and after Capt. Hanson

became connected with the ranger department, we got together

1260

fequently to discuss matter in which we were mutually interest¬

e

ed-- German propaganda, Mexican revolutionary matters, and

things in general, and he would tell me that his department

was anxious to cooperate with me in every way in the execu¬

tion pf the federal laws pertaining to the period of the war.

2 Now then, state what assistance he was to you before getting

in theranger service?

A Before the declaration of war he was of great assistance to us

in the way of giving us inside information as to certain per¬

sons under investigation on the border. After he became con¬

nected with the ranger force, I called on him frequently and

his force with him, to aid me and assist us in running down

slackers, delinquents and deserters whom we were charged with

investigating and prosecuting, if the circumstances justified

it, and also in suppressing German propaganda which was quite

prevalent.

Q Can you recall the number of slackers and deserters that the

rangers have assisted your department in apprehending?

A That would be pretty hard to state; they were frequently re¬

porting. Every day I would receive a commuhication from Capt.

Hanson submitting letters as to what his men hd dome, and

they brought in a large number of slackers and deserters, and

I would receive a communication from him every day-- it would

be hard for me to estimate how many, but the work was very

substantial and very helpful, I can say that much.

2 You knew that he resided in the Republic of Mexico a number

of years?

A I knew that, yes.

Q And was familiar with conditions on the other side, owing to

the oppponhity that few men had-- what did you find as to the

accuracy of the information he would give you in the discharge

of his duty?

brary and Arctives Comf

1261

A I have never had occasion to question it at all.

Q You remember the roundup of deserters and slackers out in San

Augustine County, Texas?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did rangers have anything to do with that?

A Yes, sir.

Q Tell what part the rangers played in that transaction?

A Personally, I didn't participate in the rounding up-- the men

however, wereunder my direction. I atiribute it to the co¬

operation of Capt. Hanson and his men that I rounded up the

bunch in San Augustine County-- eight or ten of the men we

caught are under indictment for conspiracy-- cases pending for

trial in Beaumont, Texas. I consider the work done in that

case a very remarkable piece of work in rounding up and clean¬

ing out and eliminating that bunch-- he used good judgment ard

sense.

& That work was done under the immediate supervision of Capt.

Hanson?

A Yes, sir.

How many men did you send along with his rangers?

A Three men-- two with him part of the time but three most of

the time.

Q I will ask you to state whether or not any rangers were

wounded in that fight?

A Ranger White was killed and Ranger Rowe was wounded,-- that

was the occasion of Capt. Hanson going there in person, and

after his arrival there was no blood shed.

Q Now, what connection did Capt. Hanson have with your depart-

ment in reference to the Real County deserters?

A It was reported to us that a number of them, five or six,

were hid in Real County, and we snet a man in there and he

reported that they were there and defying arrest. I conferred

with Capt. Hanson about it, and he and a number of rangers

and one of my men went along, with the result that those men,

four of them I believe-- two had given up in the meantime,

were brought in and turned over to the federal authorities.

The circumstances in that case were such that Capt. Hanson

deserves special recommendation because of the splendid way

in which he handled it. He sent word by one of the relatives

of the boys that--

SEN. PAGE: Don't you think that the details of this incident

are not necessary?

MR. KNIGHT: Yes-- anyway, he accomplished the mission wi thout

blood shed?

A Yes, sir.

Q And you regarded it as an efficient piece of vork?

A Yes, sir; extraordinary.

Q Now, the work of the rangerforce under his direction in co¬

operation with your department-- was that work satisfactory?

A Yes, they rendered extremely satisfactory services.

2 Did he not state that the desire of the Adjutant General and

the Governor, their policy was to better the personel of the

regular ranger force of Texas?

A He came to me and told me that it had been-

MR. CANALES: Object to that kind of a question as self-serring.

THE CHAIRMAN: I presume it may be somewhat self-serving-- wa

will hear it.

A He has, yes.

The Captain recognized that the force could be improved, in

other words?

A Yes, sir.

2 And manifested a desire to do so?

A Yes.

Q Have you any criticism of the ranger force in cooperation with

1263

your department, under Capt. Hanson?

A I have not.

prütection for tha Lias

What do you think of Capt. Hanson as a man of honesty and

integrity, and conscientious and fearless in the discharge of

his official duty-- what is your opinion?

A I consider him one of the best officers I have ever known in

my life and have never had occasion to question his integrity.

0 What do you think of Capt. Hanson's judgment and discretion

as an officer?

A The best I have ever known.

Q Both in peril and non-peril?

A Yes, sir.

Are you acquainted with General Caballero, former Governor

of Tamaulipas, Mexico?

A I know of him.

What is his attitude towards the present government of Mexico

as now established?

SEN. PAGE: Who is that man?

MR. KNIGHT: The man who arrested Capt. Hanson and expelled

him from Mexico.

A Several months ago he organized a revolution down there--

revolted against the Carranza Government.

What, in your judgment, is the necessity for the continuation

of the ranger force as operated by General Harley and--

MR. CANALES: There is no necessity for that-- it is not an

issue. However, I withdraw my objection.

A From the standpoint of its cooperation with my department of

the government, it is one of the most effective agencies we

have, and we rely on it to help us.

What do you think would be the effect of discontinuing this

service?

A I believe it would be very disastrous unless something of a

1264

äte Library and Archives Con

similar character was provided to take its place.

2 Would there be adequate protection for the lives and property

of citizens along the border if it was discontinued?

A I don't believe there would be.

You come in contact with a great many people in the discharge

of your duties-- have you found any sentiment in favor of

crippling or abolishing the ranger force?

A No, I have not.

Q Have their services been appreciated by the authorities rep¬

resenting the United States Government along the border?

A I have never heard any criticism of them by any representatives

of the government, by any of the officialswho come in contact

with them, such as the immigration and customs officials.

2 How many men vork in your department?

A During the period of the war I had in my division alone from

one hundred and fifty- I had one hundred and fifty, and pos¬

sibly one hundred and twentydfive of them were in the field.

2 Secret service men?

A Not the regular Secret Service operatives, but they made in¬

vestigations for the Department of Justice.

2 What wages did you pay them?

A They averaged from §3.50 up to eight and nine dollars a day,

depending on the character of work and executive ability of

the men, and so on.

Q Do you exact a bond from those men?

A No, sir.

2 What effect would bonding them have?

A I believe it would be impracticable.

Q In your opinion, what would be the effect of bonding the

Texas Rangers?

A I believe it would be very disastrous.

Q Do you believe that the service could be improved by paying

better wages-- givang the men better pay?

A Without a doubt.

Q Isn't there a great deal of similarity between the services

rendered by the Texas Rangers and by your men?

A Yes, except that our men are not authorized to make arrests.

Q In the operation of your department along the border have you

come in contact with any lawyers, and others threatening to be

lawyers, in the matter of expressing anxiety for their clients

across the river, and interfering with the operation of your

department in bringing criminals to justice?

MR. CANALES: I would like to understand the purpose of that¬

SEN. PAGE: What is the purpose of that question?

MR. KNIGHT: That his department is interfered with by lawyers

who have their client's interests at heart, and sometimes have

a personal interest in the matter.

SEN. PAGE: The objection is sustained.

MR. KNIGHT: I believe the Chairman caught the point.

Q Have you ever had any intimatien that Capt. Hanson ever affil¬

iated illegally with any Mexican faction or any of those num¬

erous parties down there?

A I have never had any complaint of that kind and never heard

of it.

There is nothing in the archives to indicate that?

A No, sir.

SEN. PAGE: Leave the archives out-- that's covering too

much territory.

MR. KNIGHT: You know Mr. Canales says that Capt. Hanson is

a spy of the Mexican government. Well, officially or otherwise

have you any information of that kind?

A Not the least thing, that I know of; no, sir.

You had something to do with the F.L.P.A's in the Sweetwater

and Abilene country, didn't you?

A Yes, sir.

2

And Capt. Hanson cooperated with you in that work?

A

No, sir; not Capt. Hanson-- I know there were some rangers

in those cases.

2

That's all.

EXAMINED BY MR. CANALES:

a

I didn't understand your duties-- what is your position?

A

In charge of the Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice,

for Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.

2

How long have you been in charge?

A

Since November, 1917.

2

And had nothing to do with it prior to that date?

A

Yes, I have been connedted with that work since 1912.

2

But not in 1910?

A

No, sir; not in 1910.

0

Capt. Hanson was with the Mexican government prior to 1912?

A

Not that I know of.

a

You say you believe the ranger service would be improved by

raising the salary of the men-- do you believe that desperate

characters, Lefty Louies and Gyp the Bloods, would change their

characters by simply drawing more wages?

A

No, sir; and men of that character should be eliminated by

all means.

2

Now, you say Capt. Hanson reported every day as to slackers

and deserters arrested-- do you know whether he reported any

from Cameron County?

A

Yes, sir; he reported plenty from down there.

a

Do you know a gentlemen by the name of Jessup?

A

Yes, I have heard that name.

2

He was chairman of the local board down there?

A

267

2

Yes.

You heard his testimony yesterday?

A

Commission

No, sir.

248

2 Tothe effect that for twelve months, from July 1917 to July

1918, not a single slacker was ever arrested by rangers in

Cameron County?

MR. MOSES: That is not correct-- he said there was not a

single slacker brought to their board-- they were arrested am

turned over to the military authorities and not brought before

his board.

THE CHAIRMAN: He said that no slacker or deserter was arrest¬

ed and brought before the local board and I asked him to re¬

peat it-- it was such a startling announcement to me.

MR. KNIGHT: Before his board, yes.

MR. CANALES: G.What is your name?

A Breniman.

rulen d regulat

Mr. Breniman, you were with the Department of Justice in San

Antonio during the time of the attempted counter revolution

by General Reyes in Mexico?

A Yes.

You remember that instance, in which Col. Chapa figured?

A Yes.

Q And remember the time he was arrested?

A Yes.

at

C Didn't you know that Capt. Hanson was connected with that

affair?

A No, sir; I didn't know that. I didn't know that Capt. Hanson

was connected with it at all-- I thought that Chapa and Reyes

were prosecuted the latter part of 1910 or 1911. I never heard

Capt. Hanson's name mentioned in the matter.

When do you think that was?

A I think the Reyes and Chapa affair occurred in 1911, am quite

sure it was-- I have had occasion to look it up.

Q Now, you were not present with the ramgers at the San Augustne

County affair?

A No, sir; I was not present.

ommis

1269

Q But you know all about it?

142

A I had complete reports from our department and our agents

out there.

Q Do you know whether a report was made to you with regard to

an eighteen year old boy, brother of one of those soldiers,

who was hung for two hours by the rangers in order to get a

confession?

A There was nothing in our reports to that effect. I have heard

some mention of that by somebody-- I don't know whether it is

a fact or not.

Q Now, as to sentiment-- there is no sentiment in regard to

preventing the recurrence of outrages-- there is no sentiment

against providing for rules and regulations whereby the service

will be improved?

A Ithink any good citizen will agree to that, and that as good

men can be secured in the ranger force as are in any other

service, and then their control is just one of administration

Don't you think that drinking men-- men who are too free in the

use of their pistols, should be completely eliminated from the

service?

A Yes, if an investigation shows that they are not proper men.

In the government service, all of the are investigated and

improper ones are not even appointed, but even then some mis¬

takes are made, and they are immediately dropped when found

unfit for the service.

o

2 That's all.

EXAMINED BY MR. KNIGHT:

Q Are you not continually weeding out your own force?

A Yes, sir.

Q And isn't it your information that the ranger force has

been gradually weeded out?

A Yes, sir.

C And Capt. Hanson told you he was going to continue it?

A Yes, sir.

2 Do you know of any Leftie Louies and Gyp the Bloods on the

ranger force?

A No, sir.

Q Do you know the individuals Mr. Canales has reference to when

he uses those names?

A No, sir; I do not.

Q Now, after you took charge of your department, I will ask

you if you didn't go over the archives of your predecessor?

A Yes, sir; I took charge of them.

Q And was interested in carrying out the work on hand-- I will

ask you if Capt. Hanson's name was ever mentioned by your

predecessor or if his name appears among the records?

A Absolutely not.

% That's all.

SEN. PAGE: What are your men used for, your 125 or 150 men?

A To make investigations of violations of the federal laws.

Secret investigations?

A Not necessarily secret-- most of our operations are not secret.

A No, sir.

2 And are not under bond?

A No, sir.

2 You men make investigation and then in case an arrest is

to be made, by whom is it made

A By the local peace officers of by deputy United States Mar¬

shals, or the sheriff or deputy sheriff, as the case may be.

2 Isn't it a fact that the federal regulations require a bond

of every peace officer or officer with authority to make an

arrest?

A I guess they do.

2 Don't you know they do?

A I presume so

Q You are in the government service and I was just asking you for

the facts. That's all.

MR. LACKEY: I move that the Committee rise until two o'clock.

- -

- - - -

(The Committee here recesses until two

o'clock P.M. Feb. 12, 1919.)

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 12, 1919.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The Joint Committee of the Senate and House of Representatives

to investigate the State Ranger Force reconvened at 2 o'clock P. M.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, proceed with the examination.

MR. MOSES: Mr. Chairman, in regard to the charge--I don't

remember the number of it--against Ranger John Edds in connec¬

tion with the arrest by the two Mexican cowboys of this man,

whatever his name was, who was taken up towards Hebbronville

and later killed---

MR. CANALES: The name is Jose Maria Gomez Salinas.

MR. MOSES: The witness Mr. Izaguirre and one of those cow¬

boys are here. The other, we understand, is sick, and Mr.

Izaguirre I don't think probably knows anything about it, but

they are citizens of Starr and Jim Hogg Counties, and one of

those cowboys is here. Mr. Izaguirre owns considerable prop¬

erty down there. I don't know anything about him except what

the testimony discloses. If there is any desire on the part

of the Chairman to interrogate him we are willing for him to do

so at any time. As to the absence of the other, that can be

inquired into. We understand one of them is physically unable

er?

to come

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, if Mr. Canales does not desire to

use them the Committee will assume the responsibility of placing

him on the stand itself. Personally, I would like to near from

him with reference to the specific charge. It is one of the

cowboys that did the killing.

12.

2

MR. TIDWELL: I would like to hear him.

MR. MOSES: It is as to what passed between them and the

Ranger Edds.

MR. CANALES: Can he speak English--Mr. Izaguirre?

MR. MOSES: Yes.

MR. CANALES: Can the other boy speak English, too?

MR. MOSES: I understand he can not.

MR. TIDWELL: There is the gentleman we used the other day

(indicating Mr. Valle).

MR. CANALES: I will object to Mr. Valle as Interpreter. He

showed that he was not impartial, and I want another Interpreter.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I have no objection to any one.

MR. MOSES: We don't care who they have, so it is somebody

that can understand Spanish.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I never saw either one of them before.

All right. Do you desire to use either of them at this time,

or have you some other witness you could be using? Can we

secure the attendance of that lady by 'phone (referring to Miss

Buckley)?

MR. CANALES: Yes, sir.

MR. MOSES: They are not in the court-room now; they will

be here later.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, hadn't we better send over for

Miss Buckley at this time?

MR. MOSES: Have you any objection to the County Attorney

of Starr County acting as Interpreter?

MR. CANALES: Yes, I object to him, too.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: We don't care to have anybody that is

mixed up in it at all.

MR. MOSES: Have you anybody down there that you have any

confidence in?

MR. CANALES: Ne, there is nobody here that I care to use.

LHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, let's not have any remarks.

Are you willing to have Mr. Celaya from Brownsville?

MR. CANALES: I have no objection to Mr. Celaya. I didn't

know he was here.

MR. MOSES: Well, those witnesses are not here now.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Well, let's use somebody else.

PAT D. HALEY.

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

EXAMINATION BY MR. KNIGHT.

C Your name is Pat Haley?

A Pat D. Haley.

Q Where do you reside?

A Rio Grande City at present.

a

Q Where did you reside in 1912?

A Brownsville, Texas.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Wait a minute. Now, would gentlemen

who are not interested in the trial except as spectators push

back a little?

(Thereupon a number of spectators retired to the rear of

(the room.

& What is your present business, Mr. Haley?

A Emigrant Inspector.

Q Emigrant Inspector?

A Yes, sir.

Q You are in the employ of the Federal Government?

A In the employ of the Federal Government.

& How long have you been so employed?

A Eighteen months.

C In 1912 you say you resided in Brownsville?

A Yes, sir.

1274

Q Did you hold any official position there then?

A I was Deputy Sheriff.

2 Did you fill that position in December, 1912?

A Yes, sir.

Q Do you know Captain J. J. Sanders?

A Yes, sir, very well.

2 Was he on duty there with a company of Rangers at that time?

A Yes, sir.

Q Do you remember the circumstance of his being requested by

you to accompany you in arresting one Ignacio Trevino?

A Yes, sir.

2 What time of the year was that?

A That was along in about October or November--I believe Novem¬

ber.

Cnte

2 Now, this Ignacio Trevino, was he or not a desperate criminal?

A Yes, he was; I believe there were three criminal charges

against him, and we were trying to catch him.

Q One was assault to murder?

A One was assault to murder.

Q One was rape?

A Yes, sir.

Q And the other was murdering Placedo Cruz?

A Murdering Placedo Cruz.

2 Now, had he been a fugitive from justice in that country for

some time?

A Yes, sir.

Q He had shown up in town?

A Well, we had learned that he was coming in at night--slipping

in at night.

Q You located him?

A Yes, sir--that is, through a Mexican by the name of Andreas

Uresti.

275

& He was a Deputy Sheriff, too?

Hawkine and Frest

A Yes, sir. He located him.

& What time of night was it when he located him?

A Well, he located him along about 10 or 10.30 and kind of hung

around with him and saw him go to bed and then slipped around

and told me.

Q Now, I will ask you to state if you called on Captain Sanders

and his men to assist you in that arrest?

A Yes, sir; I went to his post or headquarters about two o'clock

in the morning.

& That is where the Rangers were?

A Yes, sir.

Q Go ahead.

A And woke Captain Sanders up and asked them to go with me and

assist me in arresting Trevino. I had him located. Captain

Sanders got up and he and Joe Jenkins and a boy by the name of

"Red" Hawkins--I don't know what his name was---

& He is an Inspector for the Cattle Raisers now--"Red"?

A I don't know.

Q Go ahead.

A So we got in the hack and went to this house, which was on

the outskirts of town. We surrounded the house and went up and

knocked on the door and couldn't get any answer and went around

to the end window and Ignacio Trevino was laying up in bed right

by this window, and we pulled him out of the window and his wife

or somebody in the house throwed his clothes out the window to

him and we put him in the hack and started to jail with him.

0 Yes, sir.

A We got, I suppose, some six or seven blocks away from this

place and met two horseback men, as we thought---driving slow in

the hack and thought it was two men on horseback, but it was

three men on two horses, and they rode right up meeting us and rode by and they turned around, wheeled right around and rode

back up alongside the hack and "Red" Hawkins and Uresti hollered

and asked them what they wanted.

& Asked them in Spanish or Mexican?

A Uresti did, and they opened fire on us.

& Uresti was a Mexican?

A Yes, sir. They commenced shooting into the hack and there

were seven shots fired from the hack and the Mexican on the gray

horse fell off his horse, and the hackman, he got scared, the

man who was driving, and he whipped up his team and made a

pretty good start off and I hollered to him to stop, and Uresti,

on the front seat, grabbed the lines and stopped, and the other

man was gone down the street horseback and this horse was in the

street and we ran back there, but could not find anybody. We

carried Ignacio Trevino on to jail and found out in the meantime

when we got back to the hack that Joe Jenkins was shot in the

arm.

& He was one of the Rangers?

A Yes, sir. I suppose we got to the jail in the neighborhood

of three o'clock in the morning, and we 'phoned up to Sheriff

C. T. Ryan and we proceeded to hunt these people that were

shooting at us, and we learned that there was a Mexican--I believe

it was Rodriguez--in a house, wounded, at his home.

C Now, did he hold any official position in the city of Browns¬

ville?

A Rodriguez? he was a policeman.

Q All right. Go ahead.

A And we went to his house and there was a lady come out and

said in English that he was pretty badly wounded, not to take

him out of the house, and we took him and started down the

street with him. I believe Captain Sanders had hold of one

arm and I don't remember who had hold of the other; there was

a man on each side had hold of him, and Joe Longoria, a Mexican

Deputy Sheriff, and myself, and I don't remember whether it was

Ryan or one of the Ranger boys, we were coming up I suppose

twenty paces behind. We got about half a block away and

there was a shot fired from a vacant lot--not exactly vacant,

there was a little brick house on the corner--and somebody

hollered, "Who was that shot?" and me and this Deputy Sheriff

Mexican and whoever it was, three of us, ran back around the

corner and into this lot and we couldn't find anything, and

when we got back where Captain Sanders had this wounded man

he was putting him in a hack, and we put him in the hack and

took him to jail, and I believe we sent for an ambulance and

sent him to the hospital.

2 Did you hear Mr. Creager the attorney's testimony from down

there about this transaction?

A No, sir.

Q You were not here. Now, then, was that man Rodriguez shot

by Captain Sanders or any other man in that posse that night?

A No, sir.

Q The transaction occurred as you have detailed it?

A As I have detailed it.

Q Who were the other men that made the attack on you, Captain

Sanders and the other officers there the night before? were

they officers also?

A They were officers--city policemen.

Q City policemen. I will ask you to state, Mr. Haley, if

Captain Sanders or any of his men guarded the hospital and tried

to keep people from going in there?

A They did not; Captain Sanders left the jail and went right

back to his quarters, he and his boys.

Q How long were Captain Sanders and his men down there while

you were in the Sheriff's office?

A They were there a couple of years, I suppose.

& How did Captain Sanders conduct himself as a conscientious

and discreet officer?

A He was a very good officer. I called on him a number of

times to go out with me.

Q Did you ever hear of his displaying any cowardly or savage

disposition in treating his prisoners?

A No, sir, I did not.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

By Mr. Canales.

0 You say this policeman Rodriguez got shot while you were at¬

tempting to arrest Ignacio Trevino?

A No, sir.

2 What did Ignacio Trevino have to do with it?

A We arrested Trevino and were coming back to jail with him

in the hack when we met those two men horseback---there were

two horses, but three men, two men on one horse.

Q Yes.

A We met them and they rode by us.

2 Who were they?

A There was this Rodriguez----

& A policeman?

A A policeman. The third man, we never did find out who he

was, but the other fellow. I don't know his name; he used to

work out on Armstrong's ranch, a gray moustached fellow--I have

forgotten what his name was.

Q You met them?

A We met them. They rode on by us; we were driving along

slow; when they got out of sight behind the hack they wheeled

around and jumped the horses back up alongside the hack and

Andreas Uresti asked them in Spanish what they wanted or who

they were. We had Trevino on the back seat and "Red" Hawkins

was sitting facing us and Uresti and Jenkins were in the front

seat with the hackman-

& Yes.

A --and they hollered and asked who they were or what they

wanted, and they opened fire in the hack, and I think there was

some four or five shots we fired out of the hack while they

were firing at us. The hackman whipped up the horses and

went down the street and I hollered at him and Uresti stopped

the horses, and by the time we got the hack stopped and jumped

out the fellows were gone, all gone but the gray horse in the

middle of the street; the horse was in the street with the lines

laying on the ground. The Captain said. "Come on, Boys, let's

get the prisoner in jail." We walked back I suppose fifty

yards and took Ignacio and put him in jail.

& You then went back--

A I believe we then 'phoned Ryan.

MR. KNIGHT: That was the Sheriff?

A Yes, sir, and one or two boys came---Joe Longoria came to the

jail and we went out to hunt the fellows that did the shooting at

us in the hack, and before we left the jail we learned that

Rodriguez was at his house pretty badly wounded. We went to

the house of Rodriguez and a lady came to the door, a Mexican

lady, and said, "Don't take him out of the house," he was pretty

badly wounded, and we told her we had to take him and take him

to jail.

& Where was he wounded?

A I could not tell you; we just took him out of bed and walked

down the street.

Q Could he walk?

A Yes, sir.

& Well, now, who shot him while you had possession of him?

A Who shot him?

& Yes.

remember whst Hangerd were involved in that?--don't

A Nobody.

that

avenpor

Q You mean to say he was not shot after he came from the house?

A He was not. Captain Sanders had him by one arm and one of

the Rangers had him by the other arm.

Q You don't know where he was shot?

It was Ryan, the

A No, sir.

Q When did he die?

A Why, I think it was the next day, at the hospital.

& How long was he kept in jail?

A I don't think we kept him there over an hour, if that long.

& So you took him from the jail to the hospital?

A To the hospital.

Q But you took him from his house to the jail?

A Yes. We didn't know he was so bad until we got to the jail.

He weakened on the way and we got to the jail and found he was

pretty badly wounded.

Q What hospital was that?

A I don't know; I think it was Dr. Works' hospital.

& Were you at the hospital?

A No, sir.

2 Well, how do you know who was guarding him at the hospital?

A Well, I know Captain Sanders and his boys were not, because

they were in town next day.

& All of them?

A Yes, I saw every one of them next day.

& Although you were not in the hospital at any time, you knew

they were not there guarding him?

A I knew they were not guarding him.

2 Pat, do you remember a shooting that took place over in a

whore-house when Ryan and some Sheriffs were in there?

A Yes, sir.

1281

& Do you remember what Rangers were involved in that?--don't

you remember that Joe Davenport was there?

A Joe Davenport was in it, but he was not a Ranger.

MR. MOSES: We want to know the time.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I don't know it either.

C Now, I want you to recollect, Pat. It was Ryan, the

Sheriff--were you there?

Hangers never botherad them.

A No, sir.eeninBrownsvilletat

C Longoria was there?

A Longoria was there, and Bert Mitchell. Joe Jennings, Harry

Wallace, and Charley Price.

en tho Sherlff's office

C Don't you know that Charley Price was a Ranger?

A No, sir, he was not; after that he was.

& Don't you know he had recently left Captain Sanders' company?

A No, sir.

Q Who else?

A Charley Price left the Ranger service and was elected Sheriff.

Then there was another boy named Charley something, but he was

out of the service at the time.

& Charley who?

A I don't remember his name; his name was Charley, but he

went out of the service about the same time Charley Price did.

Q Pat, do you remember---you were Deputy Sheriff during the

bandit trouble?

A Yes, sir.

2 There was a considerable number of persons left their property

on this side, didn't they?

A Les, etr. liintget the sody esct alter pe wes baken from

Q And a considerable number of people were buying their stuff

cheap?

Mow

n

sad

4 Ye

there was

MR. CANALES: That's all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

By Mr. Knight.

oun

2 Did they leave there on account of fear of the Rangers, or

one

on account of other considerations?

A Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I know there were

lots and lots of Mexicans that left there. They had no fear

of the Rangers--they had no cause to be afraid of the Rangers,

but just got up and left; the Rangers never bothered them.

Q Now, are the Rangers the only gentlemen in Brownsville that

visit whore-houses?

on?

A No, sir.

C Now, was there a feud there between the Sheriff's office and

the police department?

or

A Yes, sir.

& Now, this posse was organized by you and the Sheriff's deputies

el

to arrest Trevino?

A Yes, sir.

2 You woke Captain Sanders up?

he hadn't gope

A Yes, sir.

& He was your prisoner and not the Rangers' prisoner at all?

A No, sir, he was just assisting me.

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

not to tal

EXAMINATION BY CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE.

Q How many times was that man shot?

ber.

A Twice.

160

u know that yo

Twice?

A Yes, sir, once in the body and grazed on the arm once.

Q You say he didn't get the body shot after he was taken from

his home and started up town?

A No, sir. Now. I say "No". Captain Sanders had him by

one arm and one of the Rangers by the other arm; there was a

shot fired when we got about half a block down the street and

te

1253

this Mexican Deputy, Joe Longoria, and one of the Rangers and

myself went in the direction of that shot; we went around a

kind of vacant lot and didn't find any one; we came back and

Sanders, a Ranger boy and Ryan, three or four of the officers.

were putting the man in the hack, he got so weak.

Q Now, did you make any examination to see where he was shot

before you took him from his home?

A No, sir; we just had a little gasoline light and took him

on.

didyou go to the

& Did he have all his clothes on?

A Yes, sir, all his clothes.

17

ok hi to the hosp

What time of the year was it?

A It was about November 9th or 1Oth or somewhere along there,

the early part of November.

Q And he had on his clothes?

A Yes, sir.

Q And was already in bed?

A Well, he was lying on the bed; he hadn't gone to bed.

Q Did you ask him how bad he was nurt before you tried to take

him to town?

A No, sir. This lady said he was pretty badly wounded and

not to take him, but we took him and found he was pretty badly

wounded when we got to the jail and sent him to the hospital.

2 Did you put his shoes on him?

A I don't remember.

Q Don't you know that you took him out and started to town

with him barefooted?

A No, sir, he had his shoes on when we walked down the street.

C Are you sure?

A He never pulled off his shoes or clothes there.

Q Did he have on a coat?

A Yes, he had on a coat.

Q Do you remember what color shirt he had on?

A No, I could not tell you.

Was there blood showing

A There was blood on the shirt.

Whereabouts

A All on the front of the shirt here.

Q You think he was not shot after you left his house?

A No, sir, he was not.

& Well, now, did you go to the hospital with him?

A No, sir.

& Where did you go when they took him to the hospital?

A Why, I suppose I went home or down town.

Q Did you ever see that fellow any more?

A Never saw him any more.

Q Did you talk to him about who shot him?

A Well, we tried to talk to him, but he didn't seem to know

anything.

2 Didn't know who shot him?

A Didn't know who shot him--didn't seem to know anything.

2 What physician attended him?

A Dr. Low, the City Physician, waited on him.

C Well, did you hear any conversation between him and Captain

Sanders?

A Between him and the wounded man?

QYes.

ANo, sir.

& Did Captain Sanders say anything to him?

A No, sir.

Didn't the Captain ever address any remarks to him?

A No, I don't think he ever did, unless he did when we were

in the street, because I was, I guess, twenty paces behind.

2 You were one of the men that were walking behind?

A One of the men walking behind.

& Who was back there with you?

A This Deputy Sheriff Joe Longoria and one of the Ranger boys

or the Sheriff, I don't remember; three of us were behind, but

I remember distinctly Joe Longoria, because when we went around

e

the corner we ran together.

07

EXAMINATION BY SENATOR PAGE.

Q What is your name?

A Pat D. Haley.

ired first?

Q Where were you born?

A San Patricio.

(es.

Q When?

you fired a few shots

A 1874.

Q When were you appointed Deputy Sheriff?

A In 1910.

& Under what Sheriff?

AC. T. Ryan.

& He is not Sheriff now?

A No, sir.

2 You say you had a Mexican by the name of Trevino to arrest

this night?

A Yes, sir.

Q You were in the hack?

ot.

A Yes, sir.

Q Who stopped the hack?

A Two Mexican policemen.

going?

Q What did they say?

A They didn't say anything. They didn't stop the hack; they

rode right by.

Q They were policemen?

the

A Yes, sir.

C You were Deputy Sheriff?

4 18, Hri to knov him mighty well; he lives in my town.

Q They stopped the hack?

A No, sir, they didn't.

& What did they do?

A They rode up, and when they got behind us they turned the

horses and ran back up alongside the hack.

& What did you all do?

A We fired a few shots.

& By what right?

of t

A They fired at us.

Q You didn't say they fired first?

AYes, sir.

ehet in the

Q You say you fired a few shots when they rode around there. Did

they fire first?

A They jumped the horses up against the wheels of the hack and

commenced firing in the hack on us, and we fired back.

C Did you have a warrant for this man Trevino?

AYes, sir.

Q For what charge?

nt these fellows

A For murder, rape, and assault to murder.

2 And they not only rode up in front of the hack, but began to

shoot at you?

A Not in front, but jumped the horses up alongside the hack

and started shooting. I don't know who they wanted to shoot.

2 What direction were you going?

A We were going East.

Q What direction were they going?

A They were going West and they turned right around and come

back East.

2 Did they hit anybody?

A Hit Joe Jenkins in the arm.

1217

2 I happen to know him mighty well; he lives in my town.

What did you all do then---what did you do after the shooting?

A Well, the hackman whipped the horses up---

C I asked you what did you do after the shooting?

A We stopped the horses and started back the way those fellows

started.

2 You say you jumped out. Who jumped out?

A Captain Sanders stayed in the hack and Uresti and Hawkins and

myself jumped out, but those fellows had gotten out of the way.

There was a horse in the middle of the street.

& Well, what did you do?

A Well, we ran back and couldn't find anybody, and Captain

Sanders in the meantime discovered that Jenkins was shot in the

arm and he hollered to us, "Come on, Boys, let's take the prisoner

to jail," and we did.

2 What did you do then?

A He sent Joe Jenkins out to the camp and 'phoned for a doctor

to go out and see him.

Q What did you do then?

A Then we went back to hunt these fellows that shot at us.

2 All right.

A And we found out that Rodriguez was in his house and wounded.

2 How did you find that out?

A Somebody on the street told us.

2 Who told you?

got to

A I don't remember.

& Were you inquiring for Rodriguez?

A No, sir, we didn't know it was Rodriguez.

Q What were you inquiring for?

A We were inquiring to see who these men were.

2 Who told you?

A I think it was a policeman.

Q Well, now, let's have the name.

nt he in

A I don't know his name.

& Will you swear you don't know?

A It was somebody out on the street when we got back up there.

& Who was it---you don't remember that circumstance?

A I don't remember who it was.

Q What did he tell you?

A He told us this fellow was wounded and shot at home.

Q Who?

A This fellow Rodriguez.

Q Were you inquiring for Rodriguez?

A No, sir.

Q Well, how did he come to tell you?

A He up and told us.

Q Were you inquiring for Rodriguez?

A No, sir, we were not; we were inquiring for the men that

shot at us.

9

Q Did he tell you this man shot at you?

A No, sir; he told us that Rodriguez and the other men were on

the beat; that was their beat.

Q Well, what else did he tell you?

A And he said he was at home--that he was wounded and was at

home.

Q Then what did you do?

A And we went to his house.

Q What did you do when you got to the house?

A Well, we went in and told him he would have to come and go

to jail with us.

Q Did you have a warrant for his arrest?

A No, sir.

Q Well, don't you know you have no right to arrest a citizen

of Texas without a warrant for his arrest unless the crime was committed in your presence---wasn't he in bed?

A He was on the bed.

Wasn't he barefooted?

ANo, sir.

197

& Didn't the women cry and scream?

A No, sir, the woman came to the door and said, "Don't take him

out of the house."

& Who was the woman?

A I suppose it was his wife or sister.

Q Was there any other woman there?

A In the back room.

Were you armed?

over at this vaoant

A Yes, sir.

Q Who was with you?

A Captain Sanders.

& Didn't you know you had no right to go into his house under

any circumstances---don't you know he would have been justified

in killing you for coming into his house---that you had no right

to go in his house without a warrant?

A Well, it might have been.

2 Don't you know that fact as a Deputy Sheriff---you went in

there and took him out of bed. What did you do with that man?

A Took him down to the jail.

& How did you carry him to jail?

A We carried him about a block on foot.

Was he barefooted

A No, sir, he had his shoes on.

Q Don't you know he was barefooted?

A No, sir.

Q Did he have his hat on?

A Yes, sir.

& Had his clothes on?

A He did.

2 You knew he was wounded?

4Yeg. inbaks bali ot manmei

Q Don't you know that a doctor had just dressed his wounds?

A No, I didn't know it.

Dont you know it o

A I know it now.

2 You took him out of bed and carried him to jail?

A Yes, sir.

& Well, who shot him after you left that house?

0

o you

A Nobody.

2 Was there a shot fired?

A There was a shot fired from over at this vacant lot.

Q Who shot it?

A I don't know.

2 One of the men back behind?

A I was one of the men that was behind, and we ran over there.

shot in hit

Q Was he shot in the back?

A That I don't know.

nherecelve

Q Don't you know?

A Not of my own personal knowledge.

2 You didn't shoot him, did you?

A No, sir.

Q Are you certain of that?

A I am certain of that.

Who murdered that man on the road to the sanitarium?

A He was not murdered.

C Well, he was not hurt very bad when you took him out of the

house, was he?

A I don't know only what the woman said, that he was pretty

badly wounded.

Q Where was he shot?

A He was shot in the body here somewhere.

Q You didn't care?

A I didn't take hold of the man myself.

rith you

Who did?

A Why, I think it was Captain Sanders and I don't remember who

the other was, took him by the arm and had one man on each side

m

of him by the arm and carried him down the street.

Q He was wounded and you carried him down the street. Was it

the house, yes,

a cold night?

ge with yoa a

A No, sir.

Q You say he was shot through the body before you left the

house?

nt with youe

A Yes.

& Where in the body?

A I don't know--somewhere in the body.

Q How many wounds did he have?

A I didn't know at that time. I learned afterwards that he

was shot through the body and had a shot in his arm.

Q Don't you know that shot in the arm he received when he

stopped the hack?

A No, sir.

Q Did you shoot him?

A No, sir.

2 Who shot him in the arm?

A I don't know.

in Henders spoke

Q You were there, though?

A I was there.

& Did you hear anybody after he was shot make the expression,

"If that shot isn't enough we'll give you some more“?

A No, sir.

Q You are not a peace officer now?

A No, sir.

in

SENATOR PAGE: That's all.

EXAMINATION BY MR. TIDWELL.

Grand

trict C

Q Was the Sheriff with you when you went to the residence, Mr.

Haley?

on of the

A Yes, sir, the Sheriff went with us.

Q Did the Sheriff go in the house and assist in bringing him

out?

A The Sheriff went in the house, yes, sir.

Q Now, did the Sheriff go with you all from the residence to

the jail when you carried him to jail?

A Yes, sir.

did ren

one

Q Who was the Sheriff that went with you?

A C. T. Ryan.

Q Did he give any instructions to any of you in regard to the

matter as you went along?

A No, sir, none whatever.

2 What did he say about the matter?

A I don't remember.

egirad

& Sir?

ven witnesse

A I don't remember.

return an in

MR. TIDWELL: That's all.

Grand

n te

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

pon by parties

By Mr. Knight.

Q I will ask you to state if Captain Sanders spoke Spanish or

Mexican?

A No, sir.

Q Did Rodriguez speak English?

A No, he did not.

Q There is one other question. Did the Grand Jury make a

special report on this case at the time?

A Yes, I believe they did--I know they did.

& Do you know whether or not that is a certified copy of the

Grand Jury report?--you know the Clerk's handwriting?

A Yes, sir, that is a certified copy by the District Clerk.

MR. CANALES: Now, do you want to introduce that?

MR. KNIGHT: We want to read the portion of the Grand

Jury report relating to this case under the certificate of the

Clerk.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: Did you read the dying statement of

ra

that Mexican?

A No, sir.

SENATOR WILLIFORD: You know he made one?

A I know he made one, but I never did read it.

MR. CANALES: This is supposed to be a report made by the

Grand Jury at that time---well, go ahead.

MR. KNIGET: This Grand Jury, after going over a good many

matters, said:

"This Grand Jury has spent almost half of its time in¬

vestigating the shooting between the Police Force, Rangers

and Deputy Sheriffs in which Toribio Rodriguez received

his death wound, and after examining twenty-seven witnesses.

we have failed to find sufficient evidence to return an in-

dictment in this case. It is the opinion of this Grand

Jury that Captain Sanders with his Ranger Foree and the

Deputy Sheriff were unquestionably fired upon by parties

unknown to them, and that they were justified in defending

nders was

themselves and their prisoner."

arm, but I

he men t

ha

one

MR. KNIGHT: That is signed by the Grand Jury.

of the others

tior

ion

SENATOR PAGE: Read that.

d

that

MR. KNIGHT: They are: J. L. Crawford, Foreman; F. W.

Rusteberg. J. F. Brusing. C. S. Hobbs, R. Bedford, N. E. Rendall

o

F. E. Rendon, B. E. Earle, F. B. Chambers, E. J. Blunt, and

E. A. Monsees.

EXAMINATION BY MR. MeMILLIN.

Q Who was this man that tipped this man Trevino off?

offer

A Uresti.

& He was a Deputy Sheriff?

A Yes, sir.

& He was with you when you went to make the arrest?

A Yes.ysir.ll go togsthax in e banc

o

CYou didnlt name him as being in the hack?

A Yes, sir, he went with me in the hack to get Captain Sanders

out of bed.

& Where was he when the shooting took place?

A He was there; he was sitting in the front seat with Joe

Jenkins.

MR. KNIGHT: He is the man that asked them what they wanted

C Did he go back with you after Rodriguez?

A Yesgteir. We was wiln the Captain and tse Sasrif!.

Q Well, where was he at the time the shot was fired you mention

ed a while ago?

A Well, he was with the Ranger boys. One of the Ranger boys

and Uresti when the shot was fired ran over to the right hand

side of the street.

C Well, where was he when the shot was fired?

A Well, he was alongside Captain Sanders.

Was he the one that was helping Captain Sanders lead this

fellow along?

A I don't know who the other man was, but Captain Sanders was

one of the men that had hold of this fellow by the arm, but I

don't know whether it was Andreas Uresti or one of the others

that had him by the other arm.

C Do you know whether that was the shot that hit Rodriguez or

not?

it oculd not have been.

A No, eir, I den't

2 Did he complain in any way when the shot was fired or offer

of this vae

any complaint?

A I was not close enough to them.

How far were you off?

A I was about twenty paces behind.

& Did you all go together in a bunch in the direction where

the shot was fired?

A No, sir. They came out of the house with Rodriguez, and

Joe Longoria and myself when they came out of the front door of

the house, we went around behind the corner like to see if there

was anybody behind the house; we were afraid of being waylaid.

2 You and Joe who?

A Joe Longoria, Deputy Sheriff.

Where was this fellow Andreas?

111

A Uresti? He was with the Captain and the Sheriff.

2 You don't know that he didn't shoot him?

A I know he did not shoot him.

2 How do you know that?

A Well, I didn't hear any shot fired from there; the shot was

fired from over on the vacant lot.

& Which direction did Uresti go when the shot was fired?

A He was with one of the Ranger boys and they ran over to the

side, and Captain Sanders hollered, "Where did that shot come

from?"

2 Did you run in the same direction?

A Yes, sir; they went into the lot and I went around the

yowent

corner of this building.

m7

Q Now, don't you know as a fact that that shot that was fired

was the shot that hit Rodriguez?

A No, sir, I know it could not have been.

C Well, you were twenty or thirty paces from him. How do you

know that? that's what I want to get at.

A Well, that shot came from off this vacant lot, the shot that

was fired.

OF.

2 Did you see the flash of the gun?

A No, sir, couldn't see the flash of the gun, but the shot was

Rodriguez?

party tha

fired from this lot.

Q How do you know it was shot from there?

A Well, the shot came from that direction--it sounded.

Q You didn't find anybody over there when you went?

A No, sir; we went around the house and through the lot and

there was one of the other Ranger boys came around meeting us

and we didn't find anybody.

& Didn't find anybody in that direction?

A Didn't find anybody in that direction, and we came back on

the street and back to the hack and they were putting this man

in the hack.

EXAMINATION BY SENATOR VILLIFORD.

2 Mr. Haley, how far was it from where the trouble occurred to

the house of Rodriguez?

0

A Why, I think it was three blocks.

& From where you had the fight?

A Yes, sir.

2 Do you think a man---what sort of guns were used?

A I was shooting a 32 Lugar.

Q Do you think a man shot through the body and arm could have

gone home and then walked as far as you went with him?

A I don't know; it's owing to how bad he was wounded.

Q When you got back from the vacant lot he was lying in the

hack with his feet hanging out?

A They were putting him in the hack.

sion

tate

247

2 None of you examined that man to see how badly he was hurt,

did you?

ANont sewan peart na aushes working fos aim

SENATOR WILLIFORD: That's all.

A ne,

REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

2 Havent von

By Mr. Knight.

Q You were twenty paces behind the party that had Rodriguez?

ou know John E

A Yes, sir.

2 If they had shot would you have heard the shot?

utrued

A The shot would have been right in front of me.

om Isaguirre

C Did anybody in your crowd shoot that shot?

A No, sir.

Q It was somebody in ambush that shot it?

A Yes, sir.

the first

MR. KNIGHT: That's all.

FREDERICO LOPEZ.

having been duly sworn, testified as follows:-

(Miss Buckley acting as Interpreter)

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Gentlemen, proceed with the examination.

MR. KNIGHT: We just tender him. I thought you wanted to

ask him some questions.

MR. CANALES: I will question him.

became neden

EXAMINATION BY MR. CANALES.

dWell, now, wh

2 Frederico, where do you live?

A (Interpreter) Agua Nueva.

What county is that?

A The same county as Hebbronville.

& Jim Hogg County. Who are you working for?

A Eduardo Izaguirre.

Q How long have you been working for Mr. Izaguirre?

A He thinks about seven years he has been working for him.

G Do you know Gomez Salinas?

A No, sir.

Haven't you ever seen him?

A No, sir.

& Don't you remember a man---you know John Edds?

A Yes, sir.

& Do you remember a man--a prisoner that John Edds entrusted to

you and a man by the name of Ozuna to conduct from Izaguirre's

ranch to Hebbronville?

AYes, sir.

akes five. Either one of those,

Q What was his name?

A He says he just knew him by sight; that was the first time

he had seen him and he had never heard of him before.

Q Who was with you at the time you were conducting that

prisoner?

A Sabas Ozuna.

& Ozuna. When was that?

A He thinks it was three months ago.

& Who told you to take that prisoner?

A He said John Edds told him to take him to Hebbronville, but

they didn't reach Hebbronville because something happened and it

the

became necessary to kill him.

& Well, now, who first arrested that man?

A He said "We arrested him".

When?

A That same day. They took the man and delivered him to

John dd

& Well, now, what time was it when you arrested him?

A About three in the afternoon.

C What time was it when you delivered him to John Edis?

A About dark

ritten warrant for

Q Where was this man when he was arrested?

A He was just riding and they arrested him.

& Did you have a warrant for his arrest?

pe?

A Yes, sir.

Q Were you a Deputy Sheriff?

A No, sir.

2 Well, who was with you at the time?

A He and four others.

Q Who were they?

A Matilda Rios, Pancho Longoria, Sabas Ozuna, and Juan Ramirez.

And yourself, that makes five. Either one of those, were

11 tied, his hands were still tied?

they Deputy Sheriffs?

A No, sir, they were cowboys--laborers.

Q Who gave you the order to arrest him?

A Izaguirre sent them to catch him because a robbery had oc¬

curred there.

& Well, was that man on horseback or on foot at the time you

arrested him?

A On horse.

Q Whose horse was it?

A He does not know whose horse it was.

Q Well, now, what did you say about the pistol?

A When they notified him of the arrest he pulled his pistol

and wouldn't let them get him--take hold of him.

Well, were you armed?

ok his pistol

A Yes, sir.

C Were the other fellows armed that were with you?

him to Hebbron-

A Yes, sir.

& But you didn't shoot him?

A No, sir, they just tied him.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: Have her again to ask if he had any

warrant of arrest--not just an order, but a warrant or a writ.

Q Did you or any of those with you have a written warrant for

the arrest of that man?

A No, sir.

Q Now, after you tied him---did you tie him with a rope?

A Yes, sir.

2 And where did you take him?

A Agua Nueva.

Q Now, that is where Mr. Izaguirre lived?

A Yes, sir.

2 Now, about what time of day did you get there with him?

A About three o'clock.

Q Was he still---he was still tied, his hands were still tied?

A Yes, sir, he remained tied until he was delivered to John

Edds and he put handcuffs on him and tied him.

C Tied him where?

A He put handcuffs on him and tied him.

All right. To whom did John Edds turn this prisoner over?

A Delivered him to this man (indicating the witness).

Who had the keys to the handcuffs?

mposd of fences on esch side-

A He had them--this man.

Q Now, were you armed when you started with him to Hebbronville?

A Yes, sir.

& Was Ozuna, your partner, armed also?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was the defendant--or the prisoner armed at that time?

A He was armed when they captured him, but they took his pistol

away from him.

& Well, he was not armed when they were taking him to Hebbron¬

ville?

s.

wenty-five

A No, sir.

301

C All right. What time of day was it when you started with

him for Hebbronville?

A Very early in the morning, about seven or eight.

Q How far is Hebbronville from Agua Nueva?

A About thirty-five or forty miles.

Q Now, the prisoner slept that night in Agua Nueva?

A Yes, sir.

Q He was handeuffed?

A Yes, sir.

t

2 And he was also tied?

A Yes, sir.

dida't

A1

Q Where was he tied during that night?

A On a gallery of the house.

How was he tied--by chain or with rope or how?

A He had a chain and handcuffs on his wrists.

Q All right. So you started next morning about eight o'clock

with him to Hebbronville?

A Between seven and eight o'clock.

Q That country after you leave Agua Nueva to Hebbronville is

open, sandy country, isn't it?

A Part of it is open prairie and part of it is lanes.

2 Well, now, those lanes are composed of fences on each side-

the fields are fenced?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, how far was it from Raymondville to where you killed

him---I mean Hebbronville?

Sy6

A Four or five miles.

Q Well, why didn't you kill him before that time?

A Because he hadn't run away.

Q How far was he from you when you shot at him?

A About twenty or twenty-five yards.

Q Now, you were on horseback?

A Both of them were on horseback.

Q And your partner was on horseback?

A Yes, sir.

And this was in a lane?

A No, in brush.

C And he was twenty-five yards away from you at the time you

ut ths

shot at him?

A Yes, because he ran; he started off and they called him and

he paid no attention to it.

shnestien wito it

MR. MOSES: I didn't catch that.

A He started off and they called and he paid no attention; he

started off to the brush.

2 Now, why didn't you tie his horse to the saddle of yourself

and lead him that way?

A Because he was delivered that way to them.

& Well, John Edds delivered him to you at night, didn't he?

A No, sir, in the morning.

2 Oh, did John Edds stay there all that night?

A Yes, sir.

And in the morning he delivered him to you that way?

A He delivered two letters to him.

2 And he was handcuffed and on the horse at the time?

A Yes, sir.

& Now, who told you that if he tried to run to shoot at him?

A No one told him. He says he is well known there, but not

as a murderer.

MR. LACKEY: I didn't get that.

A He said he was well known there, but not as a murderer.

MR. KNIGHT: Who?

A This man (indicating the witness).

Lngas Stäts LiBfäry and Archives Commission

& Well, now, why did you murder him?

MR. MOSES: Did he say if he had known he was going to run

away he would never have taken him?

A He said he would not have taken him.

Q Well, now, did you attempt to catch his horse before you shot

at him?

A No, he said, because he started off ahead on a very good horse.

Q And he was twenty-five yards off from you at the time?

MR. KNIGHT: Now, Gentlemen, I have no disposition to cur¬

tail the investigation, but I assume no one will gainsay that

the purpose of this is to show John Edds' connection with it,

and the witness has said that John Edds had nothing to do with

it. It seems to me that is the end sought.

CHAIRMAN BLEDSOE: I think we are entitled to have all the

facts and eircumstances, but there is a constant repetition,

which should be avoided. He has said repeatedly the fellow

was some twenty-five yards off and he shot him because he was

trying to run off in the brush.

Q At the time the deceased ran or tried to run off to one side

of the road did you and your partner attempt to run after him?

A He said no, they did not, that he was five or six paces ahead

of them and they were rolling cigarettes and when he started

off they called to him and he paid no attention to them and

they called two or three times and he kept on.

Q Did you have your gun in your hand at the time?

A No, not at the time, not at the time the man started off,

but afterwards he got his rifle.

& Did your partner have a rifle in his hand at the time?

A It was put up in the scabbard.

& Well, both of you shot at him?

A Just one shot grazed him.

Q Where was it?

Comments
0
comment

No comments here

Why not start the discussion?